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The Old Man
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I don't believe that science will ever catch up to nature when it comes to K-9 breeding, and that to me says we way over complicate the process and that in itself is a hindrance. It also helps prove that culling and selection are the most important tools in a program as that is what nature does.
Size and color are the easiest traits to manipulate, it is the performance traits that are tough so some people just start with something that they feel is well balanced in all aspects and go from there. Generally dogs will be the average of what is in their pedigree for several generations, providing there isn't too many variations-if there are then you will see them vary according to the gene pool which leads us back to culling and selection. I predict that there will never be a "formula" scientific or other wise that is guaranteed successful.
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Northstar
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Reuben anyone that has been in dogs for any amount of time has come across your type! You are looking for fame and legacy! The good news for you is there is enough new people to buy the regurgitation as your own ideas. Then there is people like myself new to hog dogs but not working dogs by any means. I am not buying your excuse of breeding untested dogs only because you want to try to get "your line" started as fast as possible. You are hurting hunting dogs by throwing a culls and cold dogs in your breeding program. The person talking about the bs breeding was probably breeding dogs for appearance not working.
I call em how I see em!
Where you are mistaken is that Reuben has been on this board for over a decade and has never once tried to push his dogs on anyone or advertise anything he has like it is the next best thing. Yeah, maybe his thought process is different than some but if he is doing it for himself and no one else then why the hell does it matter? No doubt there are a few on here or at least that were on here in the past who were looking for "fame and legacy" but Reuben is not and never has been one of them. He has very openly spoken about both his successes and failures and has always been humble when doing so. I also call em how I see em! Had the pleasure of meeting Reuben down south about a month ago. I was at a baying by myself down in Nixon, standing around just kind of people watching and here comes an older gentlemen says he recognizes me from the board, says “your slim right” I said yessir. He went on to compliment me and my dogs and we had a few different little conversations. Heck the man went and got breakfast and brought me back a taco and a coke. Heck of a guy, comes off about as humble as anyone I’ve ever met. Might want to meet a man before you start claiming you know what he’s about. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I know I am not judging anyone’s character or moral compass. Hell I would happily take a taco from the man and talk dogs. All I said is I know I have seen the results of similar practices and most have. It is usually about every 2 years someone thinks they are the first to do this or that when it comes to dog breeding. It is dog talk and how I see it. I am not running for club president and not one to give 2 number 2s if you do or don’t agree with my views. If you take post personal might not like life around work dog boards. I have been on them long enough to get worked up a couple times and drive hours to see people about it. I learned the www |
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Reuben
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NorthStar...you are definitely making assumptions about what I have posted...oftentimes when I write about breeding it is not about when I bred full blooded dogs with open pedigrees...moving on...once I got into hog hunting in the early 1980's I fed too many dogs that needed a dirt nap...so I bought quite a few supposedly good pups from good bloodlines and I culled most of them...then I found the right dogs that needed a little tweaking...and with the first young dogs they hit the marsh and were swimming in the cat tails and first time on hogs I caught two with them and then they strike a in a bad clear cut and run a hog for hours...they spent the night running and the next morning they were on my jacket waiting on me...that was my start with the good dogs...the credit goes to a man name Joe Manning, HB white and AC Zoeller and the men before them...all three are dead and gone now...I didn't create them but I improved on them to my liking...I did all I could to do that...the females I bred on the first heat is because they were well on their way to being awesome...every dog I bred in my backyard was what I called a good dog...they were all mt cur dogs but I bred a black mouth cur one time at the beginning to keep the size and quiet the mouth some...I do know dogs...working dogs but I lean towards hunting dogs of all types...especially hog dogs...you can ask me anything you want as to why I did it a certain way and I will have an answer for you because I do believe I did not leave one stone unturned on how and why I bred a certain way...I know what a good hunting dog is and I also know what a great hunting dog is...I also know what kind of dog it takes to hunt with the best of them in any company...
I never did say my dogs were scatterbred dogs...as a matter of fact I said I bred the females rather quickly so I could purify the gene pool...I said daughter and granddaughters...I did not say but they were also related to the sire and grandsire in one way or another...
this is a free forum and your are entitled to your assumptions...and I do think it would really be nice of you if you shared some of your breeding knowledge and techniques with us on this forum...fresh ideas are welcome...
1/2 of it is breeding and selecting...the other half is socializing, training and conditioning...maybe the next thread needs to be about how we do that...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Reuben
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Justin...thanks for the kind words...you have always been respectful of others that deserve it and are a knowledgeable dog man...
Slim97...thanks...it was a pleasure in meeting you in person as well...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Reuben
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Reuben please cite your sources other than your own speculations, I know your thinking I'm picking on you again and again I'm NOT, I'm just trying to make sense of your yearly "breeding better dogs" rants here in ETHD, because most of what you say and speculate contradicts most modern breeding practices, I could be wrong but it sure seems that every year when you make your breeding post all you do is repeat yourself, I've looked into most of what you said and even consulted with full time breeders and even some geneticist from the university of Florida about what you claim, not to be able to get on here and try and prove you wrong and debate back and forth on here but because of sincere legitimate curiosity on my on end because I'm one of the most open minded individuals you'll ever interact with, Reuben folks have been selectively breeding working dogs for hundred of years and everything you've mentioned in all your post has already been tried, if there were any merit to any of it then it would be common practice on just about every successful breeders yards in just about every discipline of dog working, I may not be grasping the concept here so please explain how we can and are going to take dog breeding to the next level by what we feed a pregnant female and she's exposed to during her pregnancy, if there were any concrete hard proof that this was the slightest bit true then we would already have superior dogs and superior humans, I do believe that the quality of the females diet can have an impact on the neurological and physical development of the fetus, and some forms of stimulation during gestation will have an impact on the unborn but nowhere on the scale of what I'm understanding your thoughts on this are, how are you going to improve a dogs genetics and DNA through diet and gestational exposures, before you throw epigenetics out there again please cite your sources on the claims you make it about epigenetics and not what you think or speculates going to happen that modern scientist and biologist haven't figured out, what exactly are these next level breeding dogs going to have that we don't already have, what is going to be improved on so much that the world is going to taken back by its discovery, if your having to go to the lengths to attempt this then I would evaluate the breeding stock because there's already dogs out there that possess all the traits needed to catch whatever game wherever in the world again I'm not here trying to prove you wrong, just trying to understand...
the info is out there...I won't dig it up but I am sure you will see more of it in your future... Genetics...I don't think much has changed since Gregor Mendel...and just like any other trade there will be good ones bad ones and the average...I do know you are not much into theory as much as you are in actual facts...as per your own admissions...I tend to want to learn the facts but am more interested in experimenting and pushing and seacrching for new ways...I have been involved in major upgrades and building plants as well as starting them up and have worked with the best and brightest engineers...one thing I have learned over the years is that they tend to be book smart but not as many can figure out major problems...the kind that aren't in the books...that is when theory comes into play...sometimes it is process of elimination to get to the root cause...I am talking about engineers that are employed by a company that has over 10,000 employees world wide with countless contractors... something else about what has been learned years ago like genetics and anything else...there is something that happens on a regular basis...it is called re-inventing the wheel...happens all the time... I will not change my stance on epigenetics...the changes may seem minute but in reality there are folks who like riding the border line of perfection...if not on it they are constantly working towards it... no, I am not ranting...yes I do bring certain things up because I only want to share what I believe is important in breeding, selection and training pups and dogs...true I have been writing about the same things ever since I joined this forum... I have made many good points that I haven't seen made before other than myself....yet it appears that you are only looking for negative things to point out about what I write... I been hunting with dogs for over 50 years and here lately not as much as I want...I do want to share my learning's with the new dog men and dog women...even if it helps a little here and there... you probably don't need to read my writings on account you are very experienced and knowledgeable...  I agree with most everything in this post except me picking out the negatives, again this is where your speculation comes into play and I guess you have good reason but anyone who knows me on a personal level knows I stay away from negativity of any kind from anyone, I absolutely will not dwell in nor conjure any sort of negativity, I have not always been this way and was once a negative bitter mad at the world type of guy for things that happened in my life that was beyond my control, after losing nearly everything and everyone in my life that mattered to me because of that attitude it opened my eyes to everything and I've done a complete 180 with my life and the folks I allow in it and the actions I take toward life every single second of every single day, Reuben I ask you the things I do not because I'm trying to point out the negatives and try to prove you wrong, I admire our conversations because we're about the only two on this entire board that will lay it all out there and not worry what people think, and openly discuss things that others often wonder about themselves but are to afraid of ridicule to converse about it, contrary to what you may think we're so much alike it's not even funny, we just have strong differing views on some topics, I'm a limit pusher that loves trying new things and experimenting with different ideas myself, I'm not asking you to cite your sources to call you out, heck I want to go read these articles and studies myself, I wasn't being negative when I said what I did about your yearly breeding post, all I simply want to know us what is this new dimension of breeding going to bring to the table, I'm all ears, I believe if a man wants to take his breeding to the next level then he needs to learn about sex linked traits and what genes our inherited from what parents... your probably right about being too much alike...  |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Northstar
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NorthStar...you are definitely making assumptions about what I have posted...oftentimes when I write about breeding it is not about when I bred full blooded dogs with open pedigrees...moving on...once I got into hog hunting in the early 1980's I fed too many dogs that needed a dirt nap...so I bought quite a few supposedly good pups from good bloodlines and I culled most of them...then I found the right dogs that needed a little tweaking...and with the first young dogs they hit the marsh and were swimming in the cat tails and first time on hogs I caught two with them and then they strike a in a bad clear cut and run a hog for hours...they spent the night running and the next morning they were on my jacket waiting on me...that was my start with the good dogs...the credit goes to a man name Joe Manning, HB white and AC Zoeller and the men before them...all three are dead and gone now...I didn't create them but I improved on them to my liking...I did all I could to do that...the females I bred on the first heat is because they were well on their way to being awesome...every dog I bred in my backyard was what I called a good dog...they were all mt cur dogs but I bred a black mouth cur one time at the beginning to keep the size and quiet the mouth some...I do know dogs...working dogs but I lean towards hunting dogs of all types...especially hog dogs...you can ask me anything you want as to why I did it a certain way and I will have an answer for you because I do believe I did not leave one stone unturned on how and why I bred a certain way...I know what a good hunting dog is and I also know what a great hunting dog is...I also know what kind of dog it takes to hunt with the best of them in any company...
I never did say my dogs were scatterbred dogs...as a matter of fact I said I bred the females rather quickly so I could purify the gene pool...I said daughter and granddaughters...I did not say but they were also related to the sire and grandsire in one way or another...
this is a free forum and your are entitled to your assumptions...and I do think it would really be nice of you if you shared some of your breeding knowledge and techniques with us on this forum...fresh ideas are welcome...
1/2 of it is breeding and selecting...the other half is socializing, training and conditioning...maybe the next
thread needs to be about how we do that...
I have no problem share thoughts and proven practices in breeding of working dogs that have competed at the highest levels of working and sport. I can talk breeding all day. I am sure I have different ideas then some and that does not make them right or wrong. I admit I didn’t know you were using scatter bred dogs but that would definitely make want to have the litter prove the percentages more than a line or tight bred breeding. You have been breeding longer than me if you started in the 80’s. What type of percentages are your litters throwing of solid workers? The issues some have is the F1 curse how did that effect your results? |
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Reuben
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Northstar...you answered my question with another question...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Northstar
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Northstar...you answered my question with another question...
Reuben, I didn’t see any place that you asked a question. You made statement about me sharing knowledge. So in a attempt to have a conversation about breeding I asked questions and shared some info. |
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Judge peel
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I remember a fella on hear that said I couldn’t be a good breeder but he could lol. Anyone can do anything at any time. There is some science to breeding animals but 90% is educated guess. Now experience plays in to this and selective breeding is the biggest part to me. Forest Gump said it best a litter of pups from anyone on earth is like a box chocolates you don’t know what your going to get
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Goose87
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I remember a fella on hear that said I couldn’t be a good breeder but he could lol. Anyone can do anything at any time. There is some science to breeding animals but 90% is educated guess. Now experience plays in to this and selective breeding is the biggest part to me. Forest Gump said it best a litter of pups from anyone on earth is like a box chocolates you don’t know what your going to get
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lol I know exactly what post your talking about JP, Don't matter if your dogs are scatter bred, line bred, old family of dogs, or dogs you picked up off the side of the road, if your catching hogs with them with whatever style you hunt and you raise pups off those dogs and they perform to your liking and your honest with yourself then you are successful, we all judge success on different levels and with hunting dogs there's so many different variations and styles of dogs that are successful when it comes to the bottom line and that is catching hogs that there's never going to be one set way of doing things... |
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jdt
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like the old man and others have said , science will never catch up with or understand genetics . i've not had a dog yet that needed training ... i've had 1 or 2 that needed killing ,but thats just keeping the gene pool good , the same as mother nature used to do with human beings and sooner or later is likely to do again hahaha
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