Instinctive

[TheRednose]

Slim your right to question this as it can be over complicated.

The Old Man explained it the best but I will simplify it even more. Its simply a dog lifting his head and running the scent in the air in a more direct line. It can be faster because if that hogs been weaving a little or meandering around instead of following every little weave in and out, it will just run a straight line through it making up ground on the hog. Your dogs probably do it and you just didn't know that is what people call it, as most stock bred cur dogs drift, some more than others. That is the main way winding type dogs run a track from what I have seen. Now how much a dog will drift is a different story, some get real good and start what us cat and fox hunters call cheating, in which they will "swing" and "drift" a track a lot more, sometimes more than the scent will allow. This is a double edge sword, because if the dog is really good at knowing how the game runs he will catch a lot of game a lot quicker, but if he is not this is where dogs make big losses and can end races. You can really see this cat or fox hunting big packs of dogs on the Garmin due to the way cat and foxes run. This is why a lot of these houndsmen like to have both in their pack and when the dogs have run together enough the cheaters will even learn that when they lose the track that they can go back to the voice of a certain dog they trust (track straddler) and get back on the track and try to get back in the race though sometimes they are too far behind.

Also if the hogs you are running are just running straight lines then drifting or track straddling doesn't make as much difference, whats makes the bigger difference in this case is running heads up or nose down. Just some observations I have made.

[Cajun]

It is not uncommon at all for dogs on a hot track to run on the down wind side of the track if there is a breeze, you get into the difference in scent glands and the body scurf, but it does happen a lot whether you have noticed it or not.

Exacttly like Clue said it. Most curs and some hounds run what I call running heads up. This is normally a hot track. Years ago I used to hunt a mostly cypress swamp and that is when I noticed how far off the track the dogs were running but they were well within the cone of scent. During dry times you could really see the dog tracks and they might be 30-70 yards or more on the down wind side of the track. On hogs and bear if you do not have a dog that runs heads up, he will not bay or tree many animals.

[Slim9797]

Slim your right to question this as it can be over complicated.

The Old Man explained it the best but I will simplify it even more. Its simply a dog lifting his head and running the scent in the air in a more direct line. It can be faster because if that hogs been weaving a little or meandering around instead of following every little weave in and out, it will just run a straight line through it making up ground on the hog. Your dogs probably do it and you just didn't know that is what people call it, as most stock bred cur dogs drift, some more than others. That is the main way winding type dogs run a track from what I have seen. Now how much a dog will drift is a different story, some get real good and start what us cat and fox hunters call cheating, in which they will "swing" and "drift" a track a lot more, sometimes more than the scent will allow. This is a double edge sword, because if the dog is really good at knowing how the game runs he will catch a lot of game a lot quicker, but if he is not this is where dogs make big losses and can end races. You can really see this cat or fox hunting big packs of dogs on the Garmin due to the way cat and foxes run. This is why a lot of these houndsmen like to have both in their pack and when the dogs have run together enough the cheaters will even learn that when they lose the track that they can go back to the voice of a certain dog they trust (track straddler) and get back on the track and try to get back in the race though sometimes they are too far behind.

Also if the hogs you are running are just running straight lines then drifting or track straddling doesn't make as much difference, whats makes the bigger difference in this case is running heads up or nose down. Just some observations I have made.

This makes a little sense now. You say cheating a track and I’m picking up what your putting down because my uncle talks a lot lately about how my sketch gyp cheats hogs or tracks. She’s starting to do it more often. At first it resulted in a lot of lost tracks, she is getting better at staying In them as she gets older, coming 3 year old this summer. Because of the way our hogs seem to run, it is very rare to see a hog cross, we don’t hunt big blocks with cut overs and such. The other night in the corn fields was the first time in a long time I got to see a hog cross out front of my dogs she was 80 yards behind or so when she broke out but pretty much right where he was. Probably has a lot to do with grain your gonna have to get in the same turn row you push him. She was stretched out and and pouring it to him when she hit the scrub flat he went in to and had him put up in a tank within 300 yards. Guess I’ve just never heard it called anything because it’s just something these dogs I’m around have always done


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[t-dog]

Cracker I personally didn't take it that you were bragging. What your dogs ha e learned to do is pretty dang smart. It sounds a lot like what an accurate coon dog does. When he finds the tree the coon has taken, instead of automatically treeing, he will make big circles around it to make sure mr coon didn't just tap that tree or climb up and bale etc. Once he's sure that hasn't happened he'll tell it. I like it.

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[t-dog]

Another thing I've seen involves locating. I cast dogs one morning and not 10 minutes later a northern blew in. Roscoe was already trying to work something out bit that wind was ridiculous and he was having a time with it. He finally decided to out smart it and started making big circles. His circles kept getting smaller and smaller  and moving in the same direction. Wasn't long and he was bayed on a solitary boar. It was real good watching.

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[TheRednose]

Tdog what do you mean by "locating"? This has peaked my curiosity as I have not heard this term used the way you did. I think I understand what you are saying but not sure, can you give us another example? What I am gathering is a dog smart enough to use other tools other than just his nose to find the hog if the conditions are against him smelling it. Or am I understanding you wrong.

[T-Bob Parker]

I had to ask Chance one time what he meant by “drifting a track” because I didn’t understand the concept and he explained it so I could. The dog is Cheating. This type of dog is using its head more than following its nose. It has learned from experience what hogs are going to do and so instead outpacing the hog track for track, the dog is heading straight to where he believes the hog is going and try’s to beat him there.
This is why a dog can seem like it doesn’t have great bottom but will usually beat the dog who does, it’s just a smart dog gambling on the law of averages.

Watch a dog molest and pester a wad of cows, always reacting to the cows decisions va a cow dog who is controlling a set of cows and making the herd respond to his decisions

[Reuben]

I believe that an exceptional wind dog is the best at track drifting.I own the best wind dog I've been around to date Hambone regularly winds hogs up to a half mile.When he barks and I cut him he makes  a straight line to the hogs he also uses this ability in running the track after jumped.Last night he winded some hogs at 675 we caught 6 out of the group and he lined the boar out the terrain was marsh with oak hammocks and a lot of switchgrass ponds it looks like the moon on google earth from all the ponds the hogs use these switchgrass ponds to loose the dogs they are extremely thick and nothing but hog tunnels the hogs will enter make a few laps and exit to the next a lot of dogs dive headlong in and get hung up on trying to find the exit by the time they do the hog generally has a big lead and by the third of fourth time its as good as gone well Hambone and my cypress dog will run around the edge and wind the exit and actually make up ground where most make a loss.They have figured out how to counter this play from experience and intelligence.I watched Hambone do this over and over on the garmin last night for a couple miles until he realed him in and got bayed.A straight trail dog struggles in this situation without winding first off you'd never strike the hogs and running step for step they get hung up in the hog mazes in the switchgrass ponds

Good post...your hambone has brains and bottom...I haven’t used the Garmin to the full potential...I haven’t seen my dogs run to the other side and gain ground in this way...but it is great that your dog is doing that...as you know there is no way a dog can keep up with a hog running through the thickest of thickets whether it is cane or palmettos...

The only thing I can say about running to the other end is what I see in my back yard...I usually will have 3 or 4 pups in the kennels and every afternoon I turn them out to run and play...they will roughhouse and play chase and roll each other pretty regular...they are good about taking shortcuts on each other when they chase each other around the kennels... I don’t put much thought into this because they can see each other...but when they are chasing each other around the shed the one doing the chasing will lots of times cut around to the other side and catch them as they come around...other times the one going around will stop and double back fooling the dog that is chasing...it’s all fun and games for me as well...I am learning how the pups think and operate...and the pups are gaining experience on running and stopping a pig...

Again...sounds like ole hambone is making a really good dog...

[l.h.cracker]

One of the best examples of visually seeing track drifting is watching African painted wolves from ariel drone footage.They drift flank and relay tracks smooth as silk and have the highest success rate in the animal world.

[WayOutWest]

This has been a great thread to educate folks to something they may not be aware of. The discussion amongst those most knowledgeable is great to see. To see the patience without it devolving into a pissin match is why this is the only message board I have anything to do with. Thanks to all you guys who share your knowledge, it's the only way this way of life can survive.

[TheRednose]

Slim your right to question this as it can be over complicated.

The Old Man explained it the best but I will simplify it even more. Its simply a dog lifting his head and running the scent in the air in a more direct line. It can be faster because if that hogs been weaving a little or meandering around instead of following every little weave in and out, it will just run a straight line through it making up ground on the hog. Your dogs probably do it and you just didn't know that is what people call it, as most stock bred cur dogs drift, some more than others. That is the main way winding type dogs run a track from what I have seen. Now how much a dog will drift is a different story, some get real good and start what us cat and fox hunters call cheating, in which they will "swing" and "drift" a track a lot more, sometimes more than the scent will allow. This is a double edge sword, because if the dog is really good at knowing how the game runs he will catch a lot of game a lot quicker, but if he is not this is where dogs make big losses and can end races. You can really see this cat or fox hunting big packs of dogs on the Garmin due to the way cat and foxes run. This is why a lot of these houndsmen like to have both in their pack and when the dogs have run together enough the cheaters will even learn that when they lose the track that they can go back to the voice of a certain dog they trust (track straddler) and get back on the track and try to get back in the race though sometimes they are too far behind.

Also if the hogs you are running are just running straight lines then drifting or track straddling doesn't make as much difference, whats makes the bigger difference in this case is running heads up or nose down. Just some observations I have made.

This makes a little sense now. You say cheating a track and I’m picking up what your putting down because my uncle talks a lot lately about how my sketch gyp cheats hogs or tracks. She’s starting to do it more often. At first it resulted in a lot of lost tracks, she is getting better at staying In them as she gets older, coming 3 year old this summer. Because of the way our hogs seem to run, it is very rare to see a hog cross, we don’t hunt big blocks with cut overs and such. The other night in the corn fields was the first time in a long time I got to see a hog cross out front of my dogs she was 80 yards behind or so when she broke out but pretty much right where he was. Probably has a lot to do with grain your gonna have to get in the same turn row you push him. She was stretched out and and pouring it to him when she hit the scrub flat he went in to and had him put up in a tank within 300 yards. Guess I’ve just never heard it called anything because it’s just something these dogs I’m around have always done

Doesn't surprise me your gyp will both cheat and drift a track. Like was said before most winding type dogs like curs will drift a track. As for cheating that doesn't surprise me that she does that either with her being stock bred. One will lead to the other quite a bit with intelligent dogs.

For me its tough to tell hog hunting if our dogs ever cheat because our dogs are silent and the kind of country we run we don't get to see the hogs until they are caught, but cat and fox hunting is a different story, its really easy to tell when you have a whole pack of dogs all running the same piece of game for a good amount of time. You can look at the garmin after the race and see who likes to do what.

[t-dog]

Michael, when I say locate I actually mean putting eyes on the hog and baying. They have located the hog. Some call it striking, but to me striking is like when a coon dog for example is cast and opens up when it smells a track. In competition, the first one to strike gets points etc. Reuben, those pups are doing what many say dogs don't do. They are reasoning. I love to see a dog reason.

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[Austesus]

One of the best examples of visually seeing track drifting is watching African painted wolves from ariel drone footage.They drift flank and relay tracks smooth as silk and have the highest success rate in the animal world.

Can you link the video you’re talking about? Sounds neat to watch


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[l.h.cracker]

I've just seen it on nature documentaries no particular video.

[T-Bob Parker]

Going back to the original question and changing the current subject just a bit, one instinctive thing I like to see is an early indication that a dog is going to roll over after a caught hog.

Lots of people love to see a dog be “hog crazy” or “hate a hog” and from time to time I’ve seen a handful of that style that are nice dogs, but I really perk up when I see a pup on its first few hunts being an active and purposeful participant in the bay, BUT, losing interest and leaving as soon as the hog is under control. I like to pretend the dogs I’ve trusted with are mostly all predisposed to this trait, but the truth is, as little as I’ve hunted since Harvey, I’ve had to look honestly at who is instinctively driven to always be looking for the next one, and who is having to be reminded that they are still on the clock.

[T-Bob Parker]

Going back to the original question and changing the current subject just a bit, one instinctive thing I like to see is an early indication that a dog is going to roll over after a caught hog.

Lots of people love to see a dog be “hog crazy” or “hate a hog” and from time to time I’ve seen a handful of that style that are nice dogs, but I really perk up when I see a pup on its first few hunts being an active and purposeful participant in the bay, BUT, losing interest and leaving as soon as the hog is under control. I like to pretend the dogs I’ve trusted with are mostly all predisposed to this trait, but the truth is, as little as I’ve hunted since Harvey, I’ve had to look honestly at who is instinctively driven to always be looking for the next one, and who is having to be reminded that they are still on the clock.

Sorry guys, I didn’t explain myself on the “hate a hog” front. What I mean is several times over the years I’ve seen dogs that are SUPER intense working their way to a hog, baying and helping catch it and then afterwards have to be leashed and clipped to a tree. Wild eyed and snarling, they keep pawing at the ground, straining against the leash to get back to the hog. That’s what I had in mind with those phrases and while I’ve seen some very driven ones who were hard to beat to the first hog, I’ve seen the same guys who were incredibly proud of that dog be frustrated with it when hunting with dogs who are always trying to beat each other to the next hog.

[T-Bob Parker]

Another trait I like to see “instinctively” is thoughtfulness. I mean when you have something you are trying to accomplish and the dog reads you and tries to assist. Often with modern Curs we have bred further away from this trait accidentally by selecting towards specialization. I don’t mean “the dogs back in the day were way better...”, actually I think it could be argued that some dogs today are far more effective at their individual niche. Sometimes though, it’s refreshing to see the old ways active in a modern dog.


Quick anecdote;
Old bitch I was gifted years ago, several times had hogs in a stock tank and learned that it was easier for us 2 legged’s to catch the hog if she moved it to our side. I watched her countless times try a hog in the middle of a body of water, figuring out if it was an attack hog or a run off hog and she’d adjust her pressure and body position accordingly. Eventually this trait moved onto dry land and shed lead hogs towards me any time she was able. When there was a bunch of dogs around she usually couldn’t, but by herself, I’d walk up to find her leading a hog up the trail right to me.

She produced one daughter who would do it and a son who is beginning to show signs of it if only I could hunt him more once every 2 months 

[t-dog]

I like the roll over dogs too. My Raylynn gyp is almost too quick to do it sometimes. It's usually on the smaller stuff when she does it. It's like she says oh you can handle this. I'll see you at the next one. We hunted to pups out of her yesterday. They're almost a year old and it was their 4th hunt or so. After the second hog yesterday, they started trying to roll over. After the 4th one they bayed their own hog. My pup bayed her own hog out of the group by herself. It was the 3rd hog but she was baying while 2 other hogs were squealing. I think it's a sign of intelligence over aggression, or they are smart enough to know hey it's done here let's go get another one.

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[justincorbell]

Terry I know exactly what you are saying regarding dogs rolling out as soon as the first is handled, it is a fine trait to have in a dog no doubt but I am a bit different than the majority regarding that aspect. While I, like you will not put up with the type of dog that I have to clip to a tree to get it off of the hog I differ from you in the fact that I prefer to be able to tell my dogs to roll out or to simply say nothing and let them relax and stay close by so that we can move on to the next spot I plan to hunt. I don't have a certain sound or call I make to get them to stay close but they know when I say get out to get out right then and there, if I go to sayin "roll, roll, roll" and hiss at em repeatedly they will leave out and continue hunting but if I don't they have pretty well figured out that I want them to stay close. I have worked on them alot in the past year as far as overall handle goes, I am to the point with  all of them (with exception to my pups under a year old) that if I have someone else hunting with me I can tell them to go and they will follow the other hunter back to the buggy or if I am by myself I can tie the hog then walk out with them and put them up before going back and doing whatever I need to with the hog, it has made my hunting alot more enjoyable overall.

[T-Bob Parker]

Terry I know exactly what you are saying regarding dogs rolling out as soon as the first is handled, it is a fine trait to have in a dog no doubt but I am a bit different than the majority regarding that aspect. While I, like you will not put up with the type of dog that I have to clip to a tree to get it off of the hog I differ from you in the fact that I prefer to be able to tell my dogs to roll out or to simply say nothing and let them relax and stay close by so that we can move on to the next spot I plan to hunt. I don't have a certain sound or call I make to get them to stay close but they know when I say get out to get out right then and there, if I go to sayin "roll, roll, roll" and hiss at em repeatedly they will leave out and continue hunting but if I don't they have pretty well figured out that I want them to stay close. I have worked on them alot in the past year as far as overall handle goes, I am to the point with  all of them (with exception to my pups under a year old) that if I have someone else hunting with me I can tell them to go and they will follow the other hunter back to the buggy or if I am by myself I can tie the hog then walk out with them and put them up before going back and doing whatever I need to with the hog, it has made my hunting alot more enjoyable overall.

Shoot, that's a pretty dang happy medium far as I see. I can't argue with that at. We will hunt one of these days and if it's sooner than later, you'll see I don't have a single yeller bass turd that'll do what I like these days!  . I've hunted these poor dogs 4 or 5 times this whole year and it shows!


When they were going strong last year though, I learned to use that text message feature on my fancy new Garmin and it works a lot better than hollering or blowing a cow horn! So in a way, we are going the same direction, I just want mine to be natural born cheaters so that one of these days when you and I hunt together, they'll get a headstart!  . From talking to Stokley, I can tell I'll need every advantage I can get over them of yours!!