Shy versus skittish Cur

[jstankus]

Haven't posted in a while with taking on a new job. Me and my hunting buddy got 2 female pups (reverse/B&T) from a guy at 6 weeks old, he says they're Texas YBMC with Florida YBMC crossed, parents proven. Figured I give them a try and maybe do an out cross if she was good. I notice they were both on the shy side when we got them and are still this way at 8 months old. In the past, I would not tolerate a skittish dog and cull.

I find myself struggling whether to cull her or not on the simple fact she is standoffish, she's been to the woods twice but unless I have another dog on the ground I cannot catch her to load up. Keep in mind I let her out when I get home from work everyday and would handle her and sometimes had an issue catching her in the yard but eventually could catch her up. She does have prey drive, a month ago she got a chicken in the yard and basically ate the whole thing by the time I realized what she did but really hasn't had enough wood time to see what she'll do and has not see a hog yet.

I plan to keep running her but what do y'all typically do in a case like this? I wouldn't call her skittish but she doesn't seem like an mentally sounds dog in my opinion, I would be really skeptical to even correct her if she trashes with the garmin in fear of breaking her spirit. Any pointers would be great but hate to buy a dog, feed it for 8 months, give vaccines, and flea meds to cull. Guess it's part of the process, but any insight would be great.

[t-dog]

I'm no expert but I have dealt with this problem before. While at home, put her on an extremely long lead line. Get you a lawn chair and sit. Let her run around. When you think she isn't paying attention to you, call her name. If she doesn't acknowledge you, give her just enough pressure on the lead to get it while you continue to say it. Once you have her attention call her to you. Do not go to her. If she doesn't come then continue calling her by name and command with some pressure on the lead. If she comes then praise her real good and let her go back to piddling. Just keep repeating that. If she doesn't come when you put the pressure on the lead, don't drag or real her in. Hold a steady pressure until she submits to it and then praise her verbally. She may not come all the way to you. It may only be a couple of steps, just keep doing that until she makes it up to you. Praise her real good and let her go about her playing. It will work, it just depends on her intelligence and willingness to cooperate as to how long it will take. I've also done the same thing but with a shock collar. Call them and when they didn't listen bump them with the collar but hold onto the lead line so that they don't have the option of choosing between running away or coming to you. You have to start out mild and only use as much stimulation as absolutely necessary. Once you know that they understand then do it without the lead line. This method is for the  knuckleheads that aren't skittish or the skittish ones that you have decided its make or break time lol. I also make the skittish types allow me to pet them while I call them to me at feeding time. This helps a lot in my opinion. I don't care for real skittish dogs but I can deal with a little. Those that are skittish or timid on top of extremely hardheaded (I'm gonna do what I want to do as soon as you walk off) are the ones I have a hard time tolerating. They are the hardest to line out because they can't take correction but still gonna do it as long as they think they can get away with it. Ohhhh no no no I can't do it.

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[TheRednose]

She sounds skittish to me if you can't catch her most of the time after 7 months, but if you like her give her a chance in the woods. Then make your decision based on her performance. If you don't really like her, life is too short to feed dogs you don't really like. One thing a Mentor of mine told me once that really stuck with me he said "son it costs the same to feed a good dog as it does a cull".

If you do like her one training method I use for skittish dogs depending on how food motivated they are, is I hand feed them for a bit every night when I feed. Don't put any food in her bowl at first just some in your hand and call her by name and feed her some out of your hand and pet her up and talk to her. This works great for some dogs and some skittish dogs would rather starve than eat out of your hand depending on their level of skittishness. Good luck and let us know.

[Cajun]

I went and picked up a couple of pups a year or so ago. Both parents were out of my dogs and both were top dogs.The owner told me he had not had time to fool with them as he was working a shutdown. I had to crawl all the way into the brooder to grab a couple of pups as they were trying to get as far away from me as possible. I spent a lot of time with them and the male came out of it but the female was always skittish. I can catch her but a stranger will never put his hands on her. I trained her to come to the tone or me if I called her. We made a hunt in the marsh and the dogs caught a hog about 400 yards in. My buddies got in there with a mud boat and had all the dogs caught but her. He called me and told me he could not catch her so I told him to get everybody out of the way and I was going to load her. When everybody was clear, I toned her and buddy, she hit the boat like a champ. God, I love a Garmin. Anyway, that is what I would do with your gyp if she has the potenital to make it as a hog dog.

[jstankus]

She's a happy dog, just doesn't like to be loaded up or put in a pen. Gonna try the long leash and some treats, just a pain to catch her if I'm in a hurry when they jump. I'm going to keep running her until she proves herself or I need the pen space. Toning/shocking will be my last resort. Thanks for all the good advice, I will give her time and have patience. I wouldn't call her skittish, if she was she would be gone already.

[Reuben]

The thing about pups if they aren’t given the right socialization during the critical times in the early puppy stages they will grow up with trusting issues which is another way of saying shy or skittish...it seems cur dogs are a little more prone to shyness so I do take extra time in socializing the pups...

I would add one more thing on what to do...if she is leash broke take her for long walks and take a few treats with you and give her one every once in a while when she is calm and following along...if she isn’t leash broke then leash break her first before taking the pup for walks...

[Slim9797]

I have a little different way of going about this. Comes from an old cowboy. Has worked for me the times I've made the point to do it and a few times for guys that have asked me my opinion. A few week process, dog has to trade tolerance of you for food. Eventually tolerance will turn to trust. At least in a perfect world


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[Reuben]

I have a little different way of going about this. Comes from an old cowboy. Has worked for me the times I've made the point to do it and a few times for guys that have asked me my opinion. A few week process, dog has to trade tolerance of you for food. Eventually tolerance will turn to trust. At least in a perfect world


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Slim...I agree with you...I didn’t put much emphasis on the treats during the walks on the leash but it is the biggest part of why the dog will look forward to the walks...you explained it well...tolerance will turn to trust...

That comes from the treats and patience from the handler...

Patience means the handler is not frustrated with the dog when working with it...the dog knows whether we are sincere or not...dogs will come around faster when our demeanor is right (right frame of mind)...

[jstankus]

Just to follow up, she did great today and even loaded in the box by herself! Now I just need her to leave my feet, lol.


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[Goose87]

One of my older females has been “skittish/shy” her entire life and was born and raised on my yard and by me, she’s around 10 I raised her entire litter and she was the only one like that, not sure if I unknowingly did something to effect her at an age where she was mentally vulnerable or what, still to this day her entire body quivers around people on the chain or leash, if it’s me by myself she acts like the rest, she used to be horrible at it when she was young  and almost met her demise because of it one night, guys I was hunting with at the time talked me out of it on account of how good her sire was and she was pretty nice herself but danged she was” grit your teeth, kinda aggravating to catch”, still to this day as soon as she sees someone approach the bay and start working the hog, she either rolls out or backs off a ways  and “hides”, she is the hardest baying dog on my yard and bays with a vengeance like she’s begging him to move, and will take her licks until she stops the head on a weed eater, and will grab a lawn mower tire in a second, but hardly anyone has ever seen her bay and if someone she doesn’t know or isn’t comfortable around will shake almost uncontrollably and cower bad, unsnap her and she’s straight to business mode, dangest thing to really know her and to see her around others, she will always find a rd and lay down 30 or so yards off when’s she’s done, or will come in and lay down 30 or so yards from the truck and have to to go get her , she will lay still as a floor until she hears the snap of the leash she doesn’t even have to be on it, and walks out and handles with me like a well trained retriever, I’m telling you she’s more weird than I am, I’ve bred her to her son and bred that same son to his full sister and to a complete out, keeping a hard eye for this trait and so far haven’t seen it yet, her littermate sister I give some friends was bred quite a few times and far as I know it never showed either, when she was young I’d have to drag her on the leash, she’d just lay there, after a few sessions of some ground work with a  10’ chain on leading and responding to that tug on the other end of the leash, she was never a problem with leading after that, her brother was very stand off type to a fault, on account he was barely handled as a pup never would let me catch him and finally that growling belly took over and he went in , once I figured out how to hunt and handle her I became a better handler and hunter and she became a really nice dog, she still has her quirks and always will, but they have become second nature to me, she’s about the only dog I got that no matter what style I’m hunting, truck, bike, boat, roading, track hunting, or casting,  she’s suits it naturally, she’s the last of my original pack that was born on my place before I moved and eventually wound up with the other dogs I have now and came back, we know each other’s next move, some dogs are just naturally cautious dogs and their trust has to be earned, others it can be demanded, some nothing ever works and they never get over it, ask yourself if the pros outweigh the cons and can you handle and work around what’s necessary to achieve the goal your after with her, I spend a lot of time with mine and she’s still crazy to an extent and gave her a lot more leeway than I do most of the time now, on account of the dogs in her back ground and at one time she was the only thing I had to half way depend on if I wanted to hunt and it all worked out, I know this is not advice, just letting you know it can be worked around if the patience and practicality is there, if it’s an option start bringing her in the house for an hr or so everyday when you sit down for the evening, don’t have to constantly pet and praise her while she’s in there, just let her be as long as she’s in close proximity to you and direct sight, you have to earn her trust instead of the other way around, just let her sit there and watch and learn you, throw some sort of treat every now and then and only feed her when you put her up and make it something tasty she looks forward to( not talking steak and shrimp, they are dogs that eat sh!t, keep that in mind) even let her ride upfront on quick trips to town, seems like you already know her so now let her learn you, not saying to speak as if your talking to a toddler but speak to her in a comforting reassuring tone often so she learns your tone, I spend a decent amount with mine and around my dogs, feeding, watering, raking and removing sh!t from chains and pens, they all eventually learn to react to sound of my tone, some folks may laugh but give an already learned command in a harsh tone and later give it in a soft reassuring tone( doesn’t have to be a skittish dog) and observe their reactions, anyone honest with themselves will notice the differences in reactions, there’s many methods that achieve similar end results, whose to say which is right and wrong as long as goals are being met, when there’s trust between man and beast( 4 and 2 legged species) barriers can be broken and life is easier,) when there’s only tolerance of each other then there’s personal limits, I will do what’s necessary to remove dogs from my yard that don’t bond with me, there’s never going to be trust there and neither will reach full potential if one or the other isn’t all in, kids are the greatest asset to have when raising, handling and training dogs, the handling and playing as pups and again another situation most can’t allow themselves to comprehend is that sincerity and innocence is recognized across most species, most adults aren’t legit sincere and most have motives, children only want to be children, an naturally emit soothing “vibes” to most animals, not going to get any deeper than that, children can break down major trust issues with dogs if they’re mentally sound to begin with, if it’s an option have kids handle her as much as possible, just use your common sense and imagination, it’s a skittish dog not end of times, keep note of reactions and body languages and figure out what’s needed, getting back in my rocker before even more think I’m even crazier, I’m sure you’ll figure something out in your favor if you really want to...

[jstankus]

Goose you have more tolerance than me for sure. I don’t think I’m on that level with her and I feel she will improve. She just needs woods time and experience. I was told she’s out of Texas stock but who knows. But I’m gonna give her time.


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[Goose87]

Not so much tolerance as it was not letting a dog or situation outsmart me if I could help it, please don’t take this as an insult bc in no way am I implying that, these situations aren’t rocket science problems, thinking outside the box and being creative like Reuben has mentioned in previous topics can reap huge dividends in the future, just have to ask yourself how bad do you want to resolve your problem, if she’s just another dog then let the cards fall where they may, if you can see potential to advance you in the future then it’s actually not that major of an undertaking when you look ahead of the curve, her and I both came out better individuals because of the experience, Tolerance only goes so far, today I won’t put forth that much effort, I have enough to work with now, back then my stringer of dogs was slim, and her performance was enough pro to outweigh the con of culling, even if it wasn’t my decision, my patience paid off, she reproduces better than herself and is a cornerstone in our breeding program, and still one of my old faithfuls I can depend on, caught a decent sow this morning with her, her son, and granddaughter, and one last night with her and she’s only been hunted 3 times in close to a year, so the juice was worth the squeeze, she maybe an exception to the rule who knows, and it helped knowing her back ground pretty extensive and realizing her potential, breeding around her I had my mind made up that all pups who displayed that trait would be disposed of, were all free to do as we wish and utilize whatever resources we have, and as long as the dogs are done right by then no ones advice or opinions matter, I wish you best of luck with this undertaking and if you may need anything else just pm me...




Off topic but same subject, years ago there was the Miller Brothers school of hound training, they began to search the country for those “special extra ordinary intelligent dogs, as soon as they heard of one anywhere they were loading up to go study these dogs to see if intelligence was nature/nurture, sure genetics played a role in these dogs working abilities and mental functions but wasn’t the “IT” factor, the common denominator in EVERY super smart dog they travelled to study was that everyone of them was raised like and as part of the family, again this reaps huge dividends later on down the road because there’s trust and respect there, not suggesting you do any of that, just putting it out there for yourself and others to take it for what you feel it’s worth...

[Goose87]

You tried fastening some weed eater string to a snap and attaching to to collar15-20’ shorter you can make it and still get up to it w/o her running off, Weedeater string won’t wrap or get hung, I’ve known fellas that use that approach all the time and have had to use it myself...

[jstankus]

Goose,

Never heard of the weedeater string but may give that a try. She's coming around already, but I agree with what you're saying. Kinda funny, after I made this post she started coming around and loading up in the buggy. I'll post back on how she does this fall. Thanks again!

[Cajun]

Whether a dog is shy or not, hard to catch dogs can be a problem and a liability to there selves.  Case in point if you are trying to catch a dog that comes out on a road or highway and he keeps dancing around you to avoid capture that dog could easily be run over or put yourself at risk of being run over. Around here these idiots dont slow down if they see somebody on the side of the road. Tone training is not cruel at all & the benefits are very rewarding. Like Goose said above, bonding with dogs also is very beneficial. JMO

[cajunl]

Ill give you my $.02

If I did'nt know the parents or some of the lineage, then the dog would have to be showing A LOT of potential early. You can get them better with lots of time and work. But i seem to find the first time its foot or tail is stuck in a box door or wrapped up around a lead and it thinks you are making it hurt or uncomfortable. It is starting all over again. It can be done with any dog.

BUT, The time you are putting into a skittish dog, You could be starting with a much better foundation. 

Good Luck! I hope the dog works out for you.

[jstankus]

Just wanted everyone to know I culled the skiddish dog, did try a few things which helped but this far in the game I'm confident she didn't fit my pack. Gonna put some more time into some others dogs showing good potential.

[t-dog]

Probably time and money ahead

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[Reuben]

Here’s the thing about she pups...you will always have to treat them with extra care...
I will try not to mess with shy pups because they tend to grow up that way...

Same as a pup that doesn’t show natural tendencies for hunting...I do not believe in feeding lots of tracks to make a dog and if a pup is not on that curve I like l will be very concerned...I put the shy pup in the same category... it either is or it isn’t...

[Reuben]

I gave a young dog to a friend a while back that probably will make a dog but last weekend he was on the first hog and my friend shot his 22 to get his younger dogs used to gunshots...on the next hog he wasn’t nowhere close to the hog...these are the type of things we will put up with when dealing with shy pups or dogs...it is up to whoever feeds the dog that decides what he is willing to put up with...