The long range catch dog

[Black Streak]

     What are the most important  elements to a long range catch dog and why are the injuries dramatically fewer than expected.           First let's give an example or two of such dogs appropriate for this work.    The great dane and wolfhound.    No not the great daniffs so prevalent of today but the ones few and far between that are what a great dane should be mentally, structurally, and physically.    Same with the wolfhound.         
    2 very critical elements to this style of dog and hunt style are that the pig must be caught on the dogs terms and the dog must maintain adiquit controle of the pig.     Let's say a 280 pound boar for this thread.           To catch on the dogs terms implies the dog has to catch the boar emmediatly where it's found or has to run it down in very short order.   The boar is not allowed to run where it wants before it turns to make its stand.    If the dog can't accomplish this, the boar will almost always run to a better place in which to defend itself when afforded the opportunity.         The other major critical aspect is the dogs natural ability to controle such a boar.      If the dog can not gain and maintain controle of the boar then it's just merely hanging on and enduring however much punishment the boar inflicts upon it.          What enables the dog to gain controle of such a boar?    The dogs size, strength, and agility.       A 30" dog has no problem keeping its center of gravity over its front shoulders.   A small dogs center of gravity is shifted behind its front shoulders  when holding onto a big boar.    This results in a severe lack of controle.      All the power, strength, and agility one has is pretty useless if that center of gravity is not maintained.     So for the long range catch dog, size is very important.   
    The bigger the boar the closer the dog is to being maxed out on what it can handle.    The closer to being maxed out the dog is the sooner the dog fatigues and looses controle.         
If the boar is caught on the dogs terms and the dog is in controle of the boar, then how likely is it that the dog gets hurt?            If the boar is caught on his terms and he is in controle of the fight and not the dog, then how likely is it that the dog get injured now?     
     If your lifting weights and your put you max out what you can lift, how many times can you put that weight up?    Just once then you are no longer in controle of it.      If a bigger more powerful guy comes in and his max is twice what yours is, he can work out for a good while on what you are maxed out on.   He can maintain controle of it for faaaar longer than you can.    He can even talk and joke when he is lifting what is your max that takes total concentration for you.   
     There is more to it than just these 2 critical elements but these are the main two.      This just applies to the long range catch dog and doesn't really correspond to lead in work.   Lead in work does not require the controle that long range work does.        Can you do lead in work with a long range catch dog? Yes but might want to tweek the protection a little.   Can you do long range work with a dog that's not suited for it?   Yeah I'm sure you can but your gonna have issues and problems I do not.           
      I don't consider my dogs long range catch dogs.  I consider them mid range all around dogs.   I can do long range work with them and get away with it but, there are better dogs such as full wolfhound and the uncommon proper great dane / boar hound that are better suited for it.   

[Judge peel]

You bring up some good points. But your dogs are specialty built for that in there body size and abilities. Most other dogs that do the same thing are doing it on drive and heart. I have some curs that do the exact same thing and 50 lb short pit bulls that can do it as well. I have seen a pit go 3 miles and be caught for 45 min till I got there. Size and speed most always win


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[t-dog]

I agree with you on the leverage issue. I have hunted with every size, shape, and color catch dog there is I think. I have seen good ones and bad ones in every size, shape, and color too. Most definitely there are pros and cons to each. For me and what I have observed over the years, smaller catch dogs do have more trouble gaining leverage. Anyone that has ever wrestled at all understands that leverage is crucial. I have had or seen numerous non-catch dogs injured because a smaller catch dog was unable to control the hog or maintain leverage. I have literally watched good hogs run off with smaller catch dogs dangling from their ear like nothing was there. I understand that some folks run pretty rough dogs and all they need is something to initiate the catch and then they catch hard too. That to me is kind of a third style. When I think about catch dog size I also think of boxers. Manny Pacquiao is a beast. Pound for pound one of the greatest ever, in my opinion. If you put him in the ring with George Foreman, he's going to hit him a few times, but he isn't going to fare too well when big Grorge drops bombs on him. That is just common sense. That's why there are weight classes. Dogs are no different. A bigger dog can 9.5 out of 10 times take more than the small dog when it comes to getting smacked. Our hogs are gonna bed in the thickest stuff they can most times. That is sometimes ridiculous and finding them in their bed in that circumstance is to me on the hogs terms. He chose that spot for a reason, survival. In that circumstance, a catch dog is going to take some shots. He doesn't always have an option as to which side or direction to approach or engage the hog from. It's usually one way in and one way out in our area. I have lost very few dogs in all my years of hunting. I take pride in that. The ones I have lost were small catch dogs or rough curr types. Not one has been a bigger catch dog. Most people don't like bigger dogs because it's harder to find the athletic types. The umpa loompa types are no help either. Just like you say about the new wave Danes and wolfhounds. I do think there is such thing as too big in our part of the country too. We've had some pretty big dogs that were pretty dang athletic that just didn't do as well in the nasty briar thickets. I also think one of the things that set your choice of dogs apart is intelligence. It might be my biggest pet peeve at this stage of my life. Tooo many dogs can't think on their feet anymore. They get what I call an adrenaline block. When you flip the switch on for go it throws a breaker to the brain. Smart thinking type dogs of any kind live longer and have longer careers. I can't deal with stupid or dogs that get the adrenaline block. They are on the first thing smoking if they are that away around me. Dogs do reason, don't ever let anyone tell you different. I have seen and hunted with too many that did.  Those adrenaline blocked dogs will never be better than ok at anything and will cause you as much headache as pleasure more times than not. They won't take a trail in, they gotta bust through the brush and bust the bay. They run straight at a running hog instead taking a pursuit angle, they chew leads and trees, paw at the air and snap at dogs or even people that pass by, scream and whine in the box or after they are broke off the hog. They're the ones that will grab whatever they can be it an ear, leg, jaw, etc. which sometimes has to be grabbed until they can move to the ear because they understand that they have more control and leverage there. I can go on and on about what thinkers do.

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[Black Streak]

Judge I've had 1 out and 1 3/4 pit 1/4 corso.  Both I have hunted the same way as I hunt my big dogs.    If they caught their own pig, usually they were caught on the pigs terms well beyond where they found the pig.    This was one reason they were not practical for hunting like I do.     They were not near as effecient.     Their lacking efficiency was the reason for their longer than needed hold times.   My big fast dog would be caught on a good pig close to where the pigs were found.    The pit type dogs would usually be caught much further off if they were perusing their own pigs.     Second was they had the heart like you say but they lacked the controle that my other dogs had over same size pigs.           These two dogs were time bombs in my opinion.   Neither got hurt much hunting this way though but they were at a higher risk of injury and heat stroke and drowning than my other dogs.      Rarely could these type dogs catch on their terms.  You might be in for a quick run and tie on the big dogs pig but then you have a 800 yard further run, across a creek, across a fence, deep in a thicket or in a water hole somewhere.     Totally self induced and allowed by the dog.   

[Black Streak]

T-dog, brains does go a long way.    I don't really care for stupid but I still do a face palm now and again lol.   However much of you listed as things you don't like I have either been able to correct or are a result of inexperience on the dogs part.    I've seen my really good dogs do some over excited stuff and frustrating stuff when they were young.   Take Tuff for instance.     Tuff is the best all around dog I've ever had.  He was hard headed and stubern at one point but I was able to get him to see things my way one day.         Great attitude and willing to please since then with minor corrections needed now and then but not often.        He also was not good at pulling pigs down for several months despite simotaniously showing more heart and hardness than any big dog I've had to this point.    Wasn't till recently did he become really good at pulling pigs down.   He probably caught 200 pigs before he became good at pulling pigs down.   He would hit them if they were standing but wouldn't run to the head and bring a running pig down with authority untill about 200 pigs into his career.   Now at the age of just barely 2 he is the best all around dog I've ever had and one of my best handling dogs.       His momma was to small of a dog to be an all around dog.  She was bred to be a lead in style dog.    Hardest headed dog I've ever had.   Took me 2 times to get through to her and it was a contest to see who was gonna get through to the other if you follow my drift.          After the second time she was a very different dog.   2nd best handling dog I have ever had.   3rd best is Tuff her son.       I sent her to Georgia a year ago to make more little Tuffs.   She is a dream for the hard hunting guy I sent her to.    She minds him like she did me and is one badass lead in catch dog he says.  His kids think she has hung the moon and she thinks they have.   Very very sweet and loyal dog.   She wasn't always like that though and is 2 mericals in to her being alive.         My old thunder dog, the stag I used to have that lit Georgia on fire for stags.    That dog was psychoticly crazy for pigs.     That dog would squirm, buck, chew, holler, scream, role and flip in order to get free to get back on a tied pig.   Took forever to get him off the first time.    He could run and squirm away from you so well while holding a pig because he didn't want off that it was quite the process just to get a dang lead snapped on the  D ring.   Twice I was leading him to a bay and that dog twisted, turned, bucked, and pulled out if his vest and run naked to the bay to make the catch.   Then would chew the lead in to in order to get back on.    '   I had to tie him tight to the cab of the truck if I had a tied pig in the back.    The dog was the most awsome crop dog I have ever seen in my life still.  I finally got fed up with that crap and made it known to him in a big way.   Just once was all it took and that crap stopped right then and right there.    None of those bad disrespectful habits continued on after that day.   He never once attacked a tied pig after that.   Never chewed a lead to get free, would walk beside me with slack in the lead when he knew I was about to turn him loose to pigs.     Would ride free in the bed if my truck and never bother a tied pig.       Never was able to trash break him though.   If it run it was prey to him except for livestock.   He never give any trouble to livestock.       I'd walk around a tank and a bull frog would jump and dive into the water.  Instantly like shot out of a rifle he would be diving into the water being the bull frog without thought it processing anything.        He was a hoot man but anyway, he was super psychotic when i got him.    With the proper well timed correction that dog stopped all that crap and obeyed fully by the expectations I demanded of him from that time forward.         
      Some of the pet peaves can be corrected and are just there because we allow them and don't knkw any different.      Some are just behavior that experience overcomes.    Others are directly attributed to stupid and little can be done about or corrected like shyness or skittish.   I haven't found much I can do to get one over that, that is just naturally that way.      I'm sure you mentioned some other stuff that is naturally all on the dog but some of what you mentioned I have delt with and overcome and thought I'd share

[t-dog]

I have too have corrected some of those problems. I really don't mind a hard headed animal. Hard headed and stupid are lethal for them. It's very true that timing is a big part of it too. The last three catch dogs I had before the 2 young dogs I'm hunting now were all the same dog in different wrappers. If a hog broke across the open field I could send them and call them back. If they got to a hog they were running down they would ham him and  as soon as it stopped or squatted they were eared up and hard. I have had trouble trying to tie hogs because they were licking my face while I was trying to tie. All I had to do was tell them caught hog and it was a done deal. They didn't have to be tied back. They stayed with me off leash until I said go. They were always thinking and always 2 steps ahead of the game. I actually directed Hondo to the exact hog I wanted out of a stinger that came across an open field one day. I sent him and he took the angle on them. I called his name and checked him off one hog at a time until he had the angle on the one I wanted. It's one of the coolest things I've ever done with a dog. When they caught, they were chest to the ground and butt up and keeping those front feet out of the way of the hogs mouth and rolling that inside shoulder to pull the hogs head down.They could adapt to every situation while going in and a miss was almost unheard of. Sit down, shut up, and listen for the next bay was their way and it allowed them to recover and be ready for hog after hog. Those are my kind of brains and it didn't take long to teach them anything. They lived for their job but were smart enough to know if they went about it right we could hurry up and get another one. Those dogs that I've had to break from the excitable stuff were never as fun as the layed back thinkers. I love drive and want to. It's the first thing anything has to have to be good at a task. Your dogs are driven and hard headed but I think you hit the nail on the head when you said they also had the desire to please you. That to me is it in a nut shell.

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[Judge peel]

Smart dogs are the hardest to train the dumb ones mind better. There just like smart people harder to conform.


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[l.h.cracker]

 My old thunder dog, the stag I used to have that lit Georgia on fire for stags.

Lmao You Sir are truly in your own world.They been using Stags and Stag crosses in Ga for crop work for 50 yrs lol.Why do you think your the first to do this stuff these crossed up big running catch dogs have been around forever WAY BEFORE YOU FOUND THEM.

[Black Streak]

My old thunder dog, the stag I used to have that lit Georgia on fire for stags.

Lmao You Sir are truly in your own world.They been using Stags and Stag crosses in Ga for crop work for 50 yrs lol.Why do you think your the first to do this stuff these crossed up big running catch dogs have been around forever WAY BEFORE YOU FOUND THEM.

   Not long after I sent Thunder to Georgia I started getting on average 5 messages a week  wanting dogs like him.   Then i sent another called Magnus the son of Thunder.  Magnus become famous  as well and even more messages came streaming in.     Multiple people offering 2K for anything similar and dog hauler would be dispatched emmediatly.  Cashiers check sent emmediatly.       2 grand on anything I said was similar  and many wanting to send me cashiers checks apon firdt contact with me.    Then wanting to buy entire litters.        All that persisted for 2 years untill I deleted my Facebook account and informed those that called they had to go through a certain guy up there in Georgia and have him contact me on their behalf before I'd consider sending them a dog.         I'd say that was quite the fire storm.    But  you wouldn't know anything about that would you cracker because you are in Florida.  Even you tried to get dogs from shortly before that firestorm took place.          Bet you don't care to admit that to the public lol.          Yeah I remember you telling me all about your straight catch curs and how they always got cut down.     I remember all those conversations.  Now you are just eat plumb up with jealousy and hatred for me.       I know why but you like to keep it a secret

[warrent423]

Speaking of Georgia and those hairy friggin mutts. Just spent 5 days down there hunting Randolph County for the Wilson and Arnold Families. They own right at 3/4 of the county between them. Rotation farmers, cotton, peanuts, corn. Also hunt several paper company leases around them. Couple of local crews that also hunt the Ag fields have some of those hairy basturds. Young guys who don't have much sense. They do pretty good when they turn loose on hogs that are in the fields, I give them that, but once they make it to rough woods and bottoms, the dogs are back within 10 minutes. We will come behind them quite often, only to have them tell us they have ran the remaining hogs out of the county and that we were wasting out time with those Curdogs. Can't tell you how many times we would turn loose from the field edge on fresh sign, their tracks, and have a Curdog go within a couple 3 or 400 yards and be caught in minutes, just past where their dogs had turned back. We are constantly thanking them for keeping the hogs out of the fields so they don't get wiped out by the "night vision" crews who we also share the woods with. Meanwhile, the woods and bottoms surrounding the Ag fields are slap full of hogs for our Curdogs to "find" and catch

[RafterbarK]

Black Streak is Magnus owned by Booth?

[Black Streak]

Black Streak is Magnus owned by Booth?

    Yes.   

[Black Streak]

Speaking of Georgia and those hairy friggin mutts. Just spent 5 days down there hunting Randolph County for the Wilson and Arnold Families. They own right at 3/4 of the county between them. Rotation farmers, cotton, peanuts, corn. Also hunt several paper company leases around them. Couple of local crews that also hunt the Ag fields have some of those hairy basturds. Young guys who don't have much sense. They do pretty good when they turn loose on hogs that are in the fields, I give them that, but once they make it to rough woods and bottoms, the dogs are back within 10 minutes. We will come behind them quite often, only to have them tell us they have ran the remaining hogs out of the county and that we were wasting out time with those Curdogs. Can't tell you how many times we would turn loose from the field edge on fresh sign, their tracks, and have a Curdog go within a couple 3 or 400 yards and be caught in minutes, just past where their dogs had turned back. We are constantly thanking them for keeping the hogs out of the fields so they don't get wiped out by the "night vision" crews who we also share the woods with. Meanwhile, the woods and bottoms surrounding the Ag fields are slap full of hogs for our Curdogs to "find" and catch

Yeah A stag is a crop dog. Not a finder holder which I at one time had both.  Finder holders for woods work and stags for crop work.       My finder holders outperformed the stags at their own game.  We're much more effective and efficient and practical.      You can do hunt any style you want with a good finder holder type dog.    So I sent all my stags to Georgia and all I have now are finder holders and boar hounds.        My finder holders I also call hairy dogs because of the wolfhound blood they carry.    I'm not a big fan of stags or greyhounds despite having some really good stags at one time.    Only stag blood I care for is from my old thunder dog  and  a couple dogs in my yard are a couple generations removed from him but bred away from him and the stag features as much as possible.      Stag blood doesn't do a finder holder any good.   You get superior stuff from the wolfhound blood than you ever can stag blood.           
      So Warrant nice try, all you did was put a spotlight on what I got away from.          You and.  I.H. Cracker seem to run the same type of dogs.     He even admits my type dogs are superior and better suited for the hunt style we do even in his part of the country.       He has told me before in the past that his curs really aren't 1 out hard and weren't as fast as my finder holders.  Hence the reason he was trying to get dogs off of me at one time lol.       You two guys must run same family of dogs lol.  Both of you have an ego complex and are hypocrites.   Neither of you can show 1 shred of proof to back up your lifetime of claims about having 1 out cur dogs.      Bet if either of you could muster a picture of 1 dog on a pig, the pig wouldn't be a big boar.     
   Just 1 picture of 1 dog, in your lifetime?      Can't do it can you lol

[Black Streak]

Black Streak is Magnus owned by Booth?

    The dog I mainly use now, the red dog I call Tuff is the son of Magnus.       Booth also has the mother to Tuff called Macey.   He made some more little Tuffs that are now 6 months old I think.    He sent me one of them.    She is a firecracker for sure.             Booth is transitioning like me to finder holders now that he has used them.     Magnus is a crop dog not a finder holder but because of the way Magnus is bred  and his size and structure, he can be bred to a certain type catch dog and produce some extraordinary dogs.         
        Magnus like his daddy Thunder is a very unique and special crop dog.    His daddy was slightly better do to his heart and uncanny knack for heading straight for pigs right off the truck in complete darkness hundreds of yards away  but Magnus being bred to be thicker boned, thicker muzzle, bigger, stronger, faster was superior when it come to holding big boar 1 out.    I kept Magnus for a couple years was all and sent him to Georgia after breeding him to Macey.   Magnus was the last strickly crop bred dog I have ever owned.  I'm thankful that Booth has him because of how we can breed him to dogs like Macey and get dogs like Tuff and the two male littermates to Tuff that Booth runs.     Those two dogs made a believer out of Booth about the efficiency and effectiveness of proper finder holders.          Forget Thunder and Magnus, it's those two dogs that will blow your hair back.     You see in the pictures I post what Tuff does and catches and where.   Those two are the same caliber as Tuff.     Booth is doing same thing with them as I am Tuff.    He started off doing crop work with them because he i think was a little nervouse about true finder holder work since he was a bay dogger.      He eventually took them to the woods and left the bay dogs at home.    Those two pups showed him what hunting proper finder holders is all about.     He was certainly impressed and now I think he takes them to the woods more than he does the curs.     Actually he doesn't take them both at same time now.     He says that's not necessary lol.       
    I used to talk a ton to those guys in Georgia.     All of them wanted speed.   They put so much emphasis on speed that their greys and stags were no where near like mine when they got to a pig.    Took them 3 stags to catch 1 pig where it was taking me 1.          Speed only gets you there but once you get there, then what?    I kept pushing hardness but preached stay away from the stag pit cross because they are to small to controle a big boar.        Once Magnus got to Georgia I think it woke a lot of guys up and it opened their eyes to how to breed better crop dogs than crossing the stag to a pit.   I just out of simplicity sake claim that Magnus is half stag half wolfhound but that's not 100% accurate.   He is half stag for he is the son of Thunder BUT his momma was not actually a full wolfhound.    She was half wolfhound based finder holder from same line of finder holders I still have today and half wolfhound or outcrossed to a full wolfhound.     Really making her around 3/4 wolfhound and not the 100% wolfhound that I just say for simplicity sake.    So Magnuse has a little more secret to the sauce than just stag × wolfhound.     But people in Georgia liked Magnus so much that they were really interested in knowing how to breed for dogs like him.        I've even been contacted by people in Georgia claiming they have found littermates to him here in Texas and wanting to know it no could verify whether or not they had indeed finally found a littermate to him lol.     
      The most common question I was asked by the Georgia guys was why did I sale such badass dogs and not keep them for myself.     I just tell them I didn't sale the bad as dogs, I still got them, I just sold the culls lol.     Really they aren't culls lol I just had a different type of dog called a finder holder / hairy dog that were harder and just as good at crop work and almost as fast as a pure stag but we're bred to hunt the woods and for their nose.         So I just sold the specialty dogs and kept the finder holders.    I now have great Danes in addition to the finder holders.     They do same finder holder work, just a more long range type of finder holder

[cajunl]

I hunted with those guys and the the dog in Ga. They were moving more towards the Greyhound type dogs for the crop work when i was there.  The dogs are fun for night vision and fields.

They keep curs and hounds for daytime hunting. We caught a stud boar hog with the curs and hounds after a night with the night vision. Good bunch of guys!  ;-)

[Judge peel]

So your saying they use night vision to find the hogs then turn those dogs out right on top of them. What’s the game in that unless it’s just for removal.


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[cajunl]

So your saying they use night vision to find the hogs then turn those dogs out right on top of them. What’s the game in that unless it’s just for removal.


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Yes. Big Crop fields. They have it set up where they can turn all the lights off inside and outside of truck. Ride and look with the night vision. They find the hogs in the field. Walk Quietly to about 100 yards or so downwind. Turn loose the sighthounds. They run in and catch the Hog/hogs. If hogs make it out of the pasture the dogs come back and you go look for more. They catch an absolute pile of hogs doing it that way.

Like I said they have curs and hounds for daytime and woods hunting.

[Judge peel]

That’s like fishing in a barrel lol


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[Goose87]

Dean I will add this, I camp at uncle earls just about every year just for the gathering, there were two black wolf hound looking dogs tied up by our camp that were sent from Oklahoma to a friend of mine In Ga that utilizes all styles of dogs over there, first time I had seen such type dogs in person and to say I was impressed is an understatement, very big and powerful athletic dogs, when the crowd dwindled and the guy who purchased the dogs was only one left I asked him if he knew you, folks on here can say what they want but I have no dog in this hunt so take it for what you want, a lot of what Black streak says about sending hot commodities to Ga was backed up by what my friend said, the fellow he purchased the two hairy dogs from supposedly knew you well according to ole boy but for the life of me I can’t remember his name...

[Black Streak]

People can hunt the type of dogs I have in just about any form or fashion there is.    Just because some hunt them one way does not mean the next guy does.    Y'all are just trying to demish what these dogs do because they threaten your traditions and what you have believed to be true for so long.      There are many many types of RCDs.     Y'all are describing stags which is not what I have.             As far as the crop dog gues who post their videos on Facebook of them easing out to feeding pigs in a crop field via thermal and release a few stags to them and it being like shooting fish in a barrel, well you try it with your dogs and see how many fish you shoot lol.    Bet not one is caught in the field.  Your dogs would be bayed up somewhere in the trees or your bull dog would be caught on the neighbor.           So don't try to act like it's some sort of cheating.         I could easily turn it around and say using a strike dog to find find pigs is like shooting fish in a barrel.       You guys that harp on the various forms of RCD men and how they choose to hunt there dogs are just demeaning their style because your dogs can't do it.        You have 2 days of dogs to catch 1 pig.  1 set to find and another set of dogs to catch.       I do with 1 dog hunting same style as yall and it takes yall 6 dogs and 2 sets to do what I do.    Plus your only limited to 1 way of hunting lol.        It's not me coming on here demeaning yall for being so eniffecient and needing so many dogs time I 1/3 of what I can with just 1.    It's yall deamening me and making out like I cheat somehow or acting as if I just crop hunt when you can look at my pictures and clearly see that that is by far not the case.             
    My style threatens your traditions and long held beliefs and upsets your egos.      As a result yall say derogatory things about me and my dogs in an effort to appease your own egos and to make you feel better about yourselves.     I'll post some pictures yall have seen recently that disprove once again that I'm not limited to crop hunting and do a lot of woods hunting with the same dogs I crop hunt with.