Picking pups

[bigo]

If dogs are bred as the Old Man says, all you have to do is reach and grab a pup from a litter. You don't have to do all this so called testing because it's been done on their ancestors for many years in the real world of working for a living. They will all be the same color usually, the same size and build at 6 to 8 weeks because they have not had different breeds put in them to make them faster, colder nosed, grittier, more bottom etc.. All that was done by culling and breeding well balanced dogs performance wise. The inevitable cull will still show up from time to time and the ones that work but just don't fit your stile or program.

[t-dog]

Old man I understand your point of view. I think it's sound logic. I don't put all the time into my because I have to. My main reasons for it are 1 because by the time they reach the age that I want to do live hunts with them, I already have a really good idea of whether or not they are gonna be what I've bred them to be. I have been able to see who came by the traits I bred for in the most natural way. The ones that struggle or don't fit stylistically don't get to keep eating my groceries. The schooling in the controlled environment also gives them the head start. For example, I have given pups to buddies or other people that made really good dogs. But at a year old my litter mate was being productive where their's was just another warm body for a while. I didn't put all this training into my current young dogs. They are just now a year and a half old and I could cast them and find hogs when I layed them up for deer season. They weren't but 10 weeks or so when they went and fired up on hogs on their own. No grown dog for support, no coaxing from anyone, just an oh lookie here moment and it was all of them not just one. They leave and hunt hard right out of the box. I have had an old dog that had a big shoat caught and squealing literally 20 or 30 yards away from them and they wouldn't quit baying a sow to go to the caught hog. They all figured out to leave a caught hog and go to the next one within 3 or 4 hunts. I think where it goes bad is when people don't pay attention to the smaller details or observe how natural things are as they are working with their dogs. Many people have kennel blindness. That is devastating fault to raising good dogs.

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[l.h.cracker]

Folks that like to fool with their pups a lot and do all the "training" on them is fine with me, but I believe you will end up with a better "strain" of dogs if you just handle them enough that they aren't wild and at an appropriate age give them opportunity and keep to use and breed those that done well just because it was in them and they couldn't keep themselves from doing it in the proper fashion. After a few generations the percentages go up considerably of those that do really well and there will be less separation in how good they are. You will know they were born with those instincts and did not have to learn how to. A "handmade" dog is an old time term but a handmade dog will not help your program.
For example I don't want to have to teach a cowdog to get ahead and lead, or I don't want to have to teach them to find stock, I want the pups that you have to be careful about where you cast them in order to keep them from winding and going deep onto the adjoining place, the pups that get ran over and a leg broke but keep working on 3 legs, the ones that in hot weather will work until they die if I can't get to them to get them off, are the kind I want to raise. The Plott pups that "rig" naturally and run heads up instead of jacking around with their nose on the ground and smelling every track are the ones I want to keep, or the ones that stay on a bear or hog even when hurt. And if you don't tinker with them and just choose those that do these things you will get there quicker in your strain of dogs.
I have had the privilege to have been acquainted and associated with some top breeders in a couple of breeds and that's how they arrived at the upper end of the escholon. Of course if you are "afoot" for dogs you might have to tinker with them until you get better ones.

Very good write up Old Man.I agree 100%.

[The Old Man]

My point is that the really good ones do not need a head start, if it is truly natural ability it will show really quick with only opportunity, if they are warm bodies for 10 trips they are out, most of them get their part and capably contribute by 3 trips, many of them will make a real showing their first trip.  I could site pages full of examples but would only be a waste of ink. My posts are not aimed at anyone in particular for disagreement purposes if taken as such it is in error but someone out there "might" benefit from this train of thought.

[The Old Man]

Oh, and t-dog it sounds to me like you have a real nice strain of dogs you have had for some time and are able to maintain them without searching high and low for something to improve them so don't take it was I hammering on you or anyone for that matter.
lh cracker falls into that same category with his stock of dogs
bigo maintained a real quality set of dogs for lord only knows how many years.
Mike Bolen has done this as well and the list goes on and on of folks on here that have been successful at maintaining a strain of dogs.
Then you get the fellows that love to hunt and do not breed their own, for them good dogs are wherever you find them, good hunters just the same.

[t-dog]

Old man I don't take it as you were trying to insult or put down. I have much respect for you. Heck, nobody agrees 100% on 100% lol. I figure your dogs are pretty dang nice or you be talking about where you get your dogs and not generation after generation that you've started and use. Plus I have a woman. If I get to be a little bit right every once in a while I'm feeling pretty cocky. Really and truly I'm always right when I'm at home I just haven't told her that yet.

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[Reuben]

Old man I understand your point of view. I think it's sound logic. I don't put all the time into my because I have to. My main reasons for it are 1 because by the time they reach the age that I want to do live hunts with them, I already have a really good idea of whether or not they are gonna be what I've bred them to be. I have been able to see who came by the traits I bred for in the most natural way. The ones that struggle or don't fit stylistically don't get to keep eating my groceries. The schooling in the controlled environment also gives them the head start. For example, I have given pups to buddies or other people that made really good dogs. But at a year old my litter mate was being productive where their's was just another warm body for a while. I didn't put all this training into my current young dogs. They are just now a year and a half old and I could cast them and find hogs when I layed them up for deer season. They weren't but 10 weeks or so when they went and fired up on hogs on their own. No grown dog for support, no coaxing from anyone, just an oh lookie here moment and it was all of them not just one. They leave and hunt hard right out of the box. I have had an old dog that had a big shoat caught and squealing literally 20 or 30 yards away from them and they wouldn't quit baying a sow to go to the caught hog. They all figured out to leave a caught hog and go to the next one within 3 or 4 hunts. I think where it goes bad is when people don't pay attention to the smaller details or observe how natural things are as they are working with their dogs. Many people have kennel blindness. That is devastating fault to raising good dogs.

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Excellent post...we can have an excellent strain of dogs yet there are things we can do to find the finer details...when you do these things you will most definitely have better dogs...out of 100 pups I don’t just want the top ten from a good line of dogs...I want the top two...I want to take them to the next level...meaning breeding the very best of the best...

Usually to get the best dogs we have to breed our own...like I said before...there is a ton of junk out there...

The thing about testing pups has a lot to do with keeping the best from what we can see at a very early age because most of us can not keep the whole litter...

I once had a line of dogs that were as good as any I have hunted with...they got that way because I tested every pup even though I could probably pick any pup and it would be a good hog dog...I picked the best I could and then I bred the best from those I kept...

I said I wouldn’t do it again because I spent some money doing it...turning good young dogs over just to purify the bloodline until it bred true...

But sometimes we need to sort of get back to breeding a few to get what we want...I have culled many plotts and Mt curs along the way...you guys that really know dogs know what I am talking about...

T-dog...I appreciate your writings...I know you know what a pup with great potential is...and you also know the importance of handling the pups in their youth and exposing them to different situations...maybe it is not necessary but very helpful...

From that line of dogs I had years ago...my brother wanted a blood tracking dog so I gave him a pup that was above average at finding scattered pieces of meat and was fairly laid back...he was consistently better at finding and good at trailing so at 10 or 12 weeks I let him have the pup...at two years he never trained the pup he named Trigger, much less take him to the woods...

He gives Trigger back to me and I put him in the bay pen and he looked like an old hand baying that hog...

I took him to the woods and he rolled out with the other dogs and they struck and they went in different directions and he took his own hog and swam the Brazos river after his own hog...someone called me and said they had my dog...so I drove around and picked him up...

The next weekend the dogs struck pretty quick and he takes his own hog and I followed the other dogs and my brother follows Trigger and he shoots a big hog over Trigger...he learned to pack up and he hunted the same as my other dogs with same grit etc...etc...

I share information so that anyone especially those that are new to the dog game...can read and just maybe they might find something useful...

The challenges of today...for many of us it is getting harder to breed good dogs because we don’t have enough hunting spots to hunt all the dogs we keep...I’ve got some nice young dogs and pups I just don’t know if I can hunt them as I should...

[t-dog]

Thanks Reuben. I enjoy reading everyone's posts. I don't agree with everybody all the time, but if it works for them then who am I to argue, lol. Heck if we were all the same this would be a boring world.

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[Austesus]

Reuben, can you go in more detail about turning young dogs over to purify the blood? I’m curious about what exactly that means. What are you doing there that is different from normal breeding?


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[The Old Man]

I'll tell an instant start tale or two where they had no prior exposure or training. Had a litter of pups kept 3 of them they were within a day or two of 8 months old, hot weather, but I decided to go down the creek here with them and a couple of older dogs struck a really cold track and the pups were opening on it with the older dogs, they got it jumped and swam the big creek found them 2 miles over bayed hard on a 150 lb boar caught him tied him down and drug him to the nearest road.

 Next day decided to see what their brother would do so took him and the same two old dogs same story struck a cold tack got it jumped and when the older dogs got to the creek they crossed and went over the hill out of hearing, the pup had hung up at the creek, continually barking, I sat there 15-20 minutes hoping he would cross and go on but when he didn't I gave up and rode up to where he was, I was quite disappointed in him but to my surprise he had a hog bayed by himself. Caught it and leashed the pup up and led him to the top of the hill where I could hear the others bayed and cut him loose he went to them and bayed with them.

Started a young female a year ago at 8 months had raised her running loose here until 5 months and put her on chain, never showed her game of any kind, decided to take her bear hunting with me. The dogs rigged a really cold track they were having trouble getting out of there with and weren't barking much at all but this pup I had kept in the box because I thought it was too much track for her was driving me crazy wanting out finally I said well girly if you want to go that bad I'll turn you in, she went the 300 yds up the mountain to the cold track and put in with the others they got it up over the top and left getting better all the time, when I finally drove round to where they were that pup was treed solid with them and unless there was a split race she never missed another bear tree or bayed hog for the next year until I sold her. The guys that bought her have been very pleased with her.

 Started hauling two this spring at 7 months old, no exposure what so ever, and led them in to a bear tree, they didn't know what was going on and were just looking at the other dogs barking treed, the bear was way high but it got to moving around and though the pups couldn't see it they winded it and went crazy just screaming and turning flips on the leash but still didn't know to look up the tree, I got the older dogs back and pulled the pups and waited on the bear to come down, when it hit the ground they saw it and I turned them loose they left like their tail was on fire, I let them go a half mile before I cut the older dogs loose they made the tree on that race.

The last set of Cowdogs I started were 7, 8 and 9 months old out of 3 litters I hauled 5 of them to a set of cattle. They had ran loose here and bayed everything that moved (no cattle) until 5 months old and then were chained. They could see the cows from the box and were whining and barking I cut all 5 loose without an old dog  they left running as hard as they could went all the way to the front of 60 pairs and went to baying then circled the cows up, 4 of them done great one just ran the other pups, I caught her and left the others bayed for 1.5 hours then had some trouble catching them all off (lack of training) had to go round and round getting between them and the cattle. Shortly after that (just a few days) I took the 7 month old and an 8 month old to the Dog Trials the younger one had been turned loose 3 times (she had sored her feet up so I left her home a couple of times) and the older one had been turned loose 5 times they placed second and the judge told me they would have won first place and outstanding dog had the younger one not gotten her front leg broke and though she continued working she was slower to get to the front when the cattle would shuffle and that counted against her enough to place them second. a number of people asked to buy that female after the run was over. I kept her and she healed up fine.
None of these dogs had ever found a weeny or a piece of hog meat but were all from generations of good solid line bred dogs, held until an appropriate age and then furnished a ride to the woods. The one that chased the other pups did not make it home that day.
I never worry about starting pups together, if they had rather play than work "when the opportunity presents itself" it is a strike against them. All the training they get here is what not to do.

I don't now know nor have I ever known anyone that breed dogs as consistently as coyotes, and no one trains them they have what it takes instinctivley and learn a little bit from their mom and dad until maybe next breeding season and yet they are the most consistent k-9's I know of for the traits required.

I have probably responded to this thread more than I should have, but raising and starting dogs just does not require a 10 step program (that is for alcoholics) haha and the difference in success ratio of our dogs and the success ratio of the coyotes is us and our interference which is more often than we like to admit biased. So keep it simple just let it happen naturally and keep the gooduns. I PROMISE NOT TO RAMBLE ANYMORE

[The Old Man]

P.S. those two I said I had led to the tree were taken 2 more times before they started making every tree from the strike, just slow learners I guess haha.

[Reuben]

Reuben, can you go in more detail about turning young dogs over to purify the blood? I’m curious about what exactly that means. What are you doing there that is different from normal breeding?


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Some breeders will bred the same male dog for years and the same female and finally get to the next generation five years later...I didn’t bred the same male until third and 4th generations...the females I didn’t stop until 5th and 6th generations...most everything in my yard was related pretty close and everything bred was a good hog dog...proven through testing and hunting...

My idea behind this plan was go test all pups and choose the best and to make sure everything bred was what I thought were the best...if the sire and dam contribute 50 percent and grand sire and grand dam contribute 25 percent and so on then I wanted to know what each of them were in the woods...

So purifying the bloodline in my minds eye simply means creating enough generations of related and of at least same caliber of dogs...the more generations of this type of dog will increase the percentages of pups with these traits in future generations...

However, once you reach that point that you feel it’s working to plan then just breed the same dogs to replace dogs otherwise you can wind up with tired blood which is the same thing as breeding depression...

The best advice I can give you...breed best to best and keep them related...

The hardest part is finding the right dogs to hunt and breed...hopefully those pups from Justin will be those dogs to get you going...

I don’t just look at the dog...I want to see what’s inside the dog...some dogs produce better than themselves...

[Austesus]

You’re reply was slightly hard for me to follow (you’ll have to excuse me, I’m kind of slow sometimes lol). But from what I’m gathering is that you were breeding dogs slightly younger than most people do, in order to speed up the process of getting to more consistent/better dogs? In essence you wanted to get to where some people get after 15 years, but in 5?

If the way I’m reading that is correct, how was the success rate? I’ve often thought about how you can confirm a dog is worthy of breeding. For example, let’s say he’s a very good young dog, but not a completely finished dog. Is he still worthy of breeding? Or is the dog not yet truly proven if he still needs more progression to be a true top notch finished dog. A good example of this is my Dum Dum dog. Personally i would not have considered him a true finished dog, but he showed me what I wanted for breeding and I believed he would only get better and better with time. There are guys on here that have dogs with half his age and half his experience that would probably make him look like a fool. But for me he did well and was the best on my yard.


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[Judge peel]

There is some good stuff on here just keep in mind every thing is in the eye of the beholder. I have hunted with a ton of people that thought there dog was the best thing since slice bread some where good but most ain’t what they think they are but that’s my opinion. Best advice I can give is do your thing and you find out what works for you and what don’t. What you like and what you don’t. Another thing to keep In mind is some guys use there dogs as tools and some use as there buddy and some in the middle. A decent dog can do work just bout any where there is game or stock to work some are truly special and set above the rest. I know Justin has good dogs so you have something that you can start with. I know you lost your best dog but you will have something to judge off of like how they are vs how he was. Good luck with your restart


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[Austesus]

Great words of advice Judge. I know a lot of people that do things different from each other. Many have great dogs for them, a lot of the dogs wouldn’t be great for people that hunt a different style. For example walk hunting vs casting. The guy that helped me get started only walk hunts, and MUCH faster than most. I walk hunt as well but I prefer to take my time and give the dogs time to work a track. When he hunts he knows where he wants to go (may be 6 miles deep in the swamp) and he gets there quick fast and in a hurry to get the dogs to where he thinks the pigs should be. Different from just people but his dogs are good. He actually trains dogs for people for a monthly fee, normally keeping them for 6 months to a year. I’ve seen flat out amazing dogs come from him, but that was their style. Most of them expected you to be moving with them. I saw that in my own dogs. If I’m moving they hunt, if I stop (and they’re not already trying to work out a track) they will stop to wait on me. Something I want to change with new dogs to have the opportunity to cast if I’m on land that I can do that.

It also goes back to training vs natural ability, I think almost any dog can be trained to a certain extent. The guy I’m talking about did not usually have extremely well bred dogs. He has before, and has made some nice crosses... but most dogs he ran were just average bred dogs as far as he seen. But his knowledge and him running dogs for 12+ hours a day and 6 days a week made them awesome dogs that could hunt with the best of them.

There’s always more than one way to skin a cat, I like learning about all the ways. I’m a book nerd. I like to read and research on any and everything! Lol


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[t-dog]

Old man I have a couple of questions and I'm not trying to be a jack ass. If I remember correctly you hunt plotts on bear and hogs and use black mouth for cattle. One question is why don't you use your black mouth on hogs or do you? Another question is are your plotts a family or do you have several from different lines? The third question (I know 3 is more than a couple) is do you raise plotts or just buy another when the time comes that you need another?  Forth, in breeding your dogs, how do you select who you breed and to which dog they are mated to? Again I'm just brain picking. I really don't think we are as different as you think. My dogs don't need the 10 step program as much as do lol. It's funny you mention the coyote instincts. I think about them and wolves A LOT when I am working with my young dogs and pups.

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[Goose87]

Great words of advice Judge. I know a lot of people that do things different from each other. Many have great dogs for them, a lot of the dogs wouldn’t be great for people that hunt a different style. For example walk hunting vs casting. The guy that helped me get started only walk hunts, and MUCH faster than most. I walk hunt as well but I prefer to take my time and give the dogs time to work a track. When he hunts he knows where he wants to go (may be 6 miles deep in the swamp) and he gets there quick fast and in a hurry to get the dogs to where he thinks the pigs should be. Different from just people but his dogs are good. He actually trains dogs for people for a monthly fee, normally keeping them for 6 months to a year. I’ve seen flat out amazing dogs come from him, but that was their style. Most of them expected you to be moving with them. I saw that in my own dogs. If I’m moving they hunt, if I stop (and they’re not already trying to work out a track) they will stop to wait on me. Something I want to change with new dogs to have the opportunity to cast if I’m on land that I can do that.

It also goes back to training vs natural ability, I think almost any dog can be trained to a certain extent. The guy I’m talking about did not usually have extremely well bred dogs. He has before, and has made some nice crosses... but most dogs he ran were just average bred dogs as far as he seen. But his knowledge and him running dogs for 12+ hours a day and 6 days a week made them awesome dogs that could hunt with the best of them.

There’s always more than one way to skin a cat, I like learning about all the ways. I’m a book nerd. I like to read and research on any and everything! Lol


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Never lose that love of knowing, the more we know about the world around us the better we can understand the complexities of things and it makes life more enjoyable, I’m a huge book worm and wear the title of nerd with pride and will be the first to tell anyone that I’m weird and am very comfortable with it, funny I read this this morning, boy who I’ve known since he was knee high on a grasshopper and more like the little brother I never had left this morning headed back to the rig, I had some of my old H&P  Drilling FRCs in a storage unit and went to get them out for him yesterday evening and ended up leaving with two huge boxes of books, 98% dog related, that were in there as well, I don’t watch TV I read every night before falling asleep and whenever something pops into my head that intrigues me I research as much as I can find until my thirst of knowing is quenched, knowledge is power in this world once we learn how to embrace it...

[t-dog]

Your right goose. I know the old man said something earlier about not posting much but that's what we need. It doesn't make you a know it all. Your a know it if your way is the only way. I've said this a lot, but I was blessed to grow up around good successful mentors. Everyone isn't as fortunate and the younger the hunter the less likely it is that they have that luxury in this day and time. The people I've noticed having the most success, whatever the subject, were students of the game. MANY young hunters a deaf and illiterate. Those types are a detriment to our sport or anything they do. But for the ones that are in it for the right reasons, I feel like we as veterans gotta try and help. They can do as we did and determine what works best for them. Fact is, dog men are a dying breed.

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[Reuben]

You’re reply was slightly hard for me to follow (you’ll have to excuse me, I’m kind of slow sometimes lol). But from what I’m gathering is that you were breeding dogs slightly younger than most people do, in order to speed up the process of getting to more consistent/better dogs? In essence you wanted to get to where some people get after 15 years, but in 5?
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You hit the nail right on the head with this paragraph...

My success rate was very high but I cannot put a number on it on account I didn’t have a way to track the all the pups...but the ones I was able to track were good dogs...every pup I kept made good dogs...

If you go back and read the old mans posts about his early starting pups...that is how I knew which females to keep and breed...early starting them and they showing me that they had what it takes...

This program has been named the ten step program...lol

In my older age it is kind of like losing weight...we know how to do it but don’t get on the diet as we should but I at least do the bare minimum...and same with obedience training...I could train my dog’s for it but I only train for minimum requirements...

The “Ten Step Program” evolved from the old German bird hunters who had a bada$$ testing program for GSP’s and drahthaars but I just built something very simple based on their program...no rules or regulations just doing a few things here and there...

It is very useful when we have good dogs but not the consistency we want...why take the time which is over a year and almost 2 years from the time of breeding to find out you have a cull or that you didn’t pick the best pup when you can test them and select based on that...and up your chances of picking the better pup...

If we already have a consistent bloodline it will still work...but not as necessary because the strain is more or less consistent...

We can always improve and fine tune the bloodline even when we think we have excellent dogs...

One example below...

We can look for those natural winders...many good hunting dogs brains do not click when there is a weak hog scent in the air...and their are a few that do...those few are born with it and that is why they react to it the weak hog scent...so why not select the pup that is born with it so that that trait can be intensified in the breeding program...the more of it in the program be higher the chances of getting it passed on to the pups...

As I already mentioned... it is common sense logic that tells us the more well rounded the hunting dogs are that are used in a breeding program that they will produce more of the same...

It was a pleasure sharing information and thought processes on here by everyone...

Hopefully I am done with this thread as well...

[Austesus]

Thanks for the reply Reuben, that clarified a lot for me. Sorry if I ask questions that seem to be repetitive, I just want a complete understanding.

I agree with Goose and T-Dog, I love to research and listen to every single opinion and method to find out what might work the best in particular situations. At the end of the day, if what somebody is doing is working then I don’t think they’re wrong just because they have a different method. The end goal is pretty much the same. Some of you might not believe me or might think I’m crazy, but when I got my first two pups I found this forum and for months I read through every single thread that has ever been posted in the Hog Dog and General Discussion sections. I’m not exaggerating, I read all the way through every single thread. Did I retain it all? Absolutely not! But i was able to retain some of it and it helped me get going along with the help of the guy who I got the pups from, who several months later called me to come hunt with him and ended up taking me under his wing.

Coming from one of the younger guys (I’m not quite 23 yet, and started hog hunting at 19) I appreciate when you older guys share your knowledge and experiences. There’s really no such thing as posting too much in my opinion, that’s what this forum is for. I love reading through good discussions instead of checking once a day to see that nothing new has been posted. I try to hunt with people that hunt differently than myself when I can because I get exposure to new situations and get to see different styles. Good example is rough dogs vs loose dogs. I run all silent and rough, as do most people I know and hunt around. That’s the style in this area and it’s effective on these runners. I’ve only seen one loose dog that can stop the pigs I usually hunt and she’s so small they really pay her no attention. That doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate them, shoot I would love to go listen to some loud mouth dogs and watch a good bay. I’ve never even had the opportunity to watch a true bay because the people I’ve hunted around don’t have bay dogs of that caliber. Everyone’s best dog seems to be a rough dog.

Another positive of this forum is having the opportunity to hear others. I don’t have any other hunters in my immediate area. I’ve got some buddies in the upstate, and some in the low state, but I don’t know a single person in my state with a legit breeding program. I’m sure that there are a few out there, but it seems like in SC most people don’t even know what line breeding is. They take two good dogs and breed them and then take a good dog off that litter and breed it to an unrelated food dog and so forth. That is why I was so excited to get the two pups from Justin’s yard. Because I want to eventually start line breeding good dogs here and I think it will completely change the game for myself and my close friends. Without some of you guys sharing info, that would not be as attainable.


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