Widows peak in Bulldogs

[Semmes]

This is a subject that interests me...

The old time Bulldog guys thought the widows peak came from the Black and Tan gene.

Now this could come from the terrier or another breed...

Some old  historical American Bulldogs have this trait as well

Of course NALC registered catahoulas  have this trait.
 
So what is this evidence of? The pitbull containing catahoula or other breeds? The catahoula containing pitbull or other breeds. The AB containing either or other breeds?
 
What is the origin in your opinion of this trait?

For long time dog men like wow. My question for you is what do you think the origin is?

Ironhead an acclaimed pit dog possessed this trait and was a great producer.

Scott’s shadow an early progenitor of the American Bulldog possessed this trait.  His sire gigantic Jim was always rumored to be half Great Dane..
 
Plus I could post many other game dogs from way back that were Black and Tan.

Anyway. It’s interesting because I have a 1/2 ab, 1/4 gamebred pit, 1/4 nalc registerd cat that was black n tan and her sire 1/2 ab/ 1/2 cat both have and had the widows peak.

Seems most the black n tan cats also come with a blocky build and a big head...

Just a chicken or the egg thing...

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=25124

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1442825-dixie-mountain-shadow-of-alan-scott?_v=20090206174137

[Semmes]

Obviously in my buckskin mutts it comes for the catahoula.

But where does it come from in the game apbt
From decades ago?

Where does it come from in the catahoula?

It obviously could come from anywhere in the AB. From  Rottweiler to Doberman. It’s a catch all.

Why are the black n tan cats do blocky and rough?

[Semmes]

The obvious conclusion would be the terrier I suppose. Hence American pitbull terrier.

But how did that get into the catahoula or the AB?

My guess would be through the apbt.

Your thoughts?

[Judge peel]

In my opinion it comes from intense line breeding black seems to on a lot of it


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[Semmes]

Nah...black begat black or a dilute of blue...

Black and Tan is different. ESP exhibited in a total coat color of tan or buck or white

[Semmes]

If the widows peak in those other colors, as supposed by folks long dead, if a proof of the back and tan gene. Then it has nothing to do with solid black.

It’s a terrier trait

[Semmes]

....never seen a black n tan Labrador

[Judge peel]

Nope sure don’t


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[t-dog]

My guess would be the pit bull side. I’m not as familiar with the AB lineage so I can’t say for sure with them, but there are certain families of them that definitely have some pit bull in there. I was always taught that waaaay back, there were basically two strains of the Catahoulas. Texas and Louisiana both had their own. I can’t remember now which did what but one bred hound into the cats and the other bred pit bull into them. Years ago it was pretty evident in appearance. You would see some really houndy type cats and you could see really pit looking cats. I remember pulling up to hunt with my buddies uncle one morning. There was a truck there already that had a knockout of a dog in the back of it. He was reddish/liver colored, with amber eyes, and a red nose. Tight made and muscular but not overly so and the muscle was well defined. I said man that’s a pretty pit cross. My buddy said naw that dogs pure pit. Naturally in the next few minutes we asked. He was a registered cat. His momma was a red merle gyp and I never saw his dad, but actually hunted with about 3 of his brothers and actually owned 1 of them. They were all red or liver colored but a couple of them actually had this widows peak as well. They were stupid rough. I don’t remember hunting with any of them
that they didn’t get hammered anytime we got on a decent hog. So I say the pit side but I don’t know if it’s isolated to the blk/tan gene. I don’t know if the widows peak would be a color gene or a pattern gene. That’s my small brain storm.


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[t-dog]

I could be wrong but seems like some of the Sorrels bred APBT’s had some dogs with the widows peaks.


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[Semmes]

Long story short, IMO, the  terrier crossed fightn pitbull of the late 18th century is a component of the modern catahoula and the American Bulldog. The AB people hate that.... but it’s the truth imo

Of course there may be more pure strains of the molosser type Bulldog before the terrier infusion that were here but those were definitely crossed to more modern pit dogs with the terrier infusion dogs of the pit dogs. I can’t say...no one can. But the folks that tout the true pure crap sure can’t prove it and actually the evidence points to a Myriad of other breeds bred trying to mold a modern reconstruction of a lost breed.

This I have heard first hand and evidence is there to support the composite breed fact. While there is none on the other side. Just stories

[Semmes]

Tdog,
I like that ab you are hunting now...

Showed my son pics of him a while back.

My son attended shows while he was a youngster  with me and his mother and has hunted his whole life.

He liked the pics of the dog too...

If I had to guess that dog has a fair bit of hines blood in it.

My favorite ab rip and the one I still breed on has a fair bit as well

[Semmes]

Here’s one I bred, rip lost to a hog, that I have a young gyp off off now. Both have that widows peak.

http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=83330.msg499604#msg499604

[Semmes]

Believe me...

I’m not selling Bulldogs. I don’t have pups and if I did they’d be free to working homes...

It’s just the widows peak thing I’m tryn to discuss

[t-dog]

Thanks Semmes. He’s a nice dog and a pleasure to hunt. He’s not perfect, there are a couple of things I would change. I bred him to the last old gyp out of the family of bulldogs I raised for years. She had 6, all males, and 2 were still born of the 6. It looks like she cleaned up some of the physical things I wanted so we will see. I wanted female pups though, lol.



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[WayOutWest]

Nice pup T, I had quite a few dogs down from Honeybunch stuff who was rumoured to be off Ironhead and although I never had any with the widows peak the folks still running those dogs are getting a few. There is absolutely no black and tan or any Sorrells blood in these dogs that I am aware of.

[Muddy-N-Bloody]

The widow peak strong in the OFRN dogs
Ive had several with it
Their several names inside the OFRN strain that have this trait


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[TheRednose]

The widow peak strong in the OFRN dogs
Ive had several with it
Their several names inside the OFRN strain that have this trait


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Wilders Geronimo II had a widows peak if I remember right and you would see it pop up in dogs here and there that came down from that family of dogs.

[TexasHogDogs]

In the bulldog game nobody has ever really nailed down were the widows peak come from.  Some lines of dogs seem to throw more than others such as the old Iron Head dogs but it just can never really be nailed down .  People must understand that there has been bulldogs around for 1500 years.  From what I can understand all this started with dogs that where called Rat dogs.  Which were dogs that were bred to kill rats as most of the cities were infested with them back 100 and 100s of years ago. This is were the bulldog game came into play.  Our American Pit Bull Dogs are made up of many many different lines of dogs such as the Irish dogs,  the English dogs,  the British dogs, Scotland Scottish dogs,  Spain dogs and many many years ago dogs of the Middle East such as Saudi Arabia I've heard had great great dogs.  A lot of these dogs were  brought over to the usa back during the gold rush as the Irish and Scottish people were coal miners and when gold was discovered in Calif.  They all thought piss on coal we are going to Calif to mine Gold and they did .  Well they brought there dogs with them .  I know a man that was born and raised in Calif and the bulldog game was completely legal back then.  He told me a story one time were the Cops all had Bulldogs and the Fire Dept all had bulldogs and they had major competition between the two depts often playing the bulldog game in the middle of the fire station .  Where the chit hit the fan back then was when they were having a great competition going on right in the middle of the fire station against the cops .  The whole damn departments were there lmao Well sure as hell the Fire Dept gets a call about a house of fire and nobody picked up the phone lol .  Well about a half our later when one of the deals were over they all were walking out side for a liquor break hahahaahahhahaahahahaha and all hell was breaking loose just across the street the whole damn place was on fire aahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.  This all made the papers and that is when the first chit hit the fan in Calif and bulldogs .   But no man nobody has ever nailed down the widows peak in bulldogs .  It would be almost impossible . 

[Reuben]

Long story short, IMO, the  terrier crossed fightn pitbull of the late 18th century is a component of the modern catahoula and the American Bulldog. The AB people hate that.... but it’s the truth imo

Of course there may be more pure strains of the molosser type Bulldog before the terrier infusion that were here but those were definitely crossed to more modern pit dogs with the terrier infusion dogs of the pit dogs. I can’t say...no one can. But the folks that tout the true pure crap sure can’t prove it and actually the evidence points to a Myriad of other breeds bred trying to mold a modern reconstruction of a lost breed.

This I have heard first hand and evidence is there to support the composite breed fact. While there is none on the other side. Just stories

I not too much into the history of dogs on account the real truth will never be known especially when going way back…over the years I have read that bulldog and the Black and Tan terrier were crossed to come up with a dog that was much better in the pit…