Widows peak in Bulldogs

[TexasHogDogs]

Some more information on the widows peaks.  I bred bulldogs for many years and know quite a few of the oldest dog men was in the game which most have now passed on but there are a few still alive.  I was talking to a old friend of mine that owned bulldogs since he was 9 years old he is now 70 or better.  He owned dogs straight off of Eli Jr. Brendy and Bullyson .  He also owned the old Maw bitch that started the Alien/Bullnumber 2 line of dogs also known as the White dogs with the great Banditlio dog .  He owned the sister to Chinaman and dogs straight off of the great old Bolio dog as a matter of fact his best friend had Eli Jr. , Bolio and Java all on his yard at the same time  He knew just about all of the great old dog men personally .  We were talking about the widows peak and were it may have come from.  He said that it came from the white colored bulldogs of long long ago.  Earl Tudor loved the white dogs and the widows peak from what he tells me.  Also Tudor imported dogs from the Irish in Ireland and also dogs from the English.  My old buddy was in the military and over in Ireland for a stay.  He said while he was over there he met a man that owned around are over 300 bulldogs all on chains and kept perfectly. Nearly all White dogs and a lot with widows peaks.  The Irishman told my friend that these dogs had been in his family for around 200 years are so .  These bulldogs and the widows peak has been around for hundreds of years it goes back years and years.  I was also talking to him about what was mention up there about bulldog being bred into the  Catahoula line of dogs to which he said he would not doubt it at all.  Like he said people need to understand that breeds of different dogs have been around for hundreds of years and bred for a different working purposes back in the old old days not for play not for show but for jobs.  People could not afford to feed dogs just because they were pretty.

I once bred a family of dogs so tightly that I had a kick back come out of a liter.  When I seen this pup born I had no ideal what it was are were it came from.  The oddest looking thing and I was sitting there when it was born.  This dog had a dark blue color with light blue splotches mixed all in the coat of hair.  It looked like the underneath was spray painted with a light gun metal blue and then you stepped back with a bucket of dark blue paint and just slung it at the dog .  Damndest thing you ever seen .  As the pup got up to about four five months old .  I was out playing with the dog on a bright sunny day and I got to looking at the dog .  When the sunlight would hit the dog the coat looked reddished and as soon as it was in the shade it would be dark blue to gun metal blue damndest thing I had ever seen thought my eyes were playing tricks on me.  Well as the dog got up to about six months old I never in my life seen a bulldog look like this .  So I got to asking around and sent pictures to every body I knew even in other countries.  Nobody had a anwser.  Then one day out of the blue a man from the UK emailed me and said he would like to send me a picture that he knew what the dog was and what happened in the breeding.  He sends me this hand painted picture of this dog from the 1700's .  Yes you read that right from the 1700's.  It was a picture of the a Blu Pahl fighting dog.  He said with the hard family and  inbreeding I  had done on this line of dogs  that the dog I now had in my possession was a direct Throw back to the blu Pahl fighting dogs of the 1700's.  Needless to say I like to crapped my britches when I unrolled the painting that he had sent me .  True story .  So you see you can get throw backs from many many many years if bred well enuff.

[t-dog]

Was the throw back good, different, or a cull? I know the description of this particular dog is a little different but the dog men of old culled blue pups at birth because they were automatically presumed inferior in performance and health. That was how they more or less eliminated that color.


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[HuntingHeritage]

[HuntingHeritage]

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HuntingismyHeritage@gmail.com

[t-dog]

Hunting heritage that was a neat and interesting article. I’ve been around hunting/working dogs, working horses (rodeo/cow horses of one kind or another), and game chickens my entire life. I would say a vast majority of the people that molded me in any of those, all had very similar thought processes. Obviously, there are always exceptions to the rules, but as a whole certain rules just seem to hold up. As a kid and a youngster I always liked the loud colored and different looking animals. It didn’t matter if it was loud, flashy marked catahoula, a paint horse, or a blue game rooster, they had my attention. Pretty is almost always gonna get bred because people just appreciate pretty and most will give pretty chance after chance when they would’ve already discarded it if it weren’t pretty. When I got older, and started losing my money betting on pretty, my dad and other mentors all explained it about the same way. I will use the game chickens for example. If you were at a derby and you could put all the winners in baskets according to color, the basket with the plain old red roosters would be over flowing several times over before the baskets of uniquely or off colored roosters. I asked why that was and it was explained that there were two reasons basically. One was that some colors are just inferior for one reason or another. The other reason was that the off colored birds were selected on color or beauty ahead of performance. The plain old reds were selected for performance first more times than not. None of this means the off colored ones didn’t win or beat some red ones or even that there weren’t some great ones of off color. If you look at the most popular families out there they will come in all colors because some people are about performance alone and others are in hopes of having uniqueness as well performance. There are some really good off colored families but there seem to be fewer of them because of the lower percentages in performance. There are family after family of reds though that just never go away because they perform consistently. There are a lot of really good blue roan horses, but when it comes to being well rounded, the better ones are crosses to a good red bloodline. Many of the blue horses are known for being tough as nails but not as athletic. Again, there are always exceptions.  Many of the old cowboys always said that if you watched westerns on TV you would see that the Indian Cheifs made their braves ride paints and apps. They said it was so the braves would be good and mad when they got to battle. I have seen some of both of those that were as good as any in any color but not consistently. As for my bay dogs they are a cat/Walker cross. It seems like I’m always drawn to the merles in appearance but end up keeping the different variations of black, brindles, or Walker colored ones. It seems like the longer I raise them the fewer merles I get because of it. Not that the merles aren’t good but that the others seem to be a little better. I don’t know if any of this makes sense to anybody but me lol, but this article was saying something very similar to me. And please, nobody be offended by what I’m saying. I’m not trying to knock ANYBODY’S dogs, chickens, or horses. If you like them I love them. They only have to please you. Mine wouldn’t please anyone but me most likely.


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[TexasHogDogs]

The dog only made it to about six are seven months old.  He was kept in a nice kennel by himself and seemed healthy as a horse.  I went outside one morning and the dog was laying dead in the kennel .  For no reason at all he just fell over.  Dangest thing.  There was a lot of interest in that dog because of the way he was bred.  It would have been nice to see how he turned out but we will never know.  One day I will put up a picture of the Blu Pahl painting I have that the man sent me.  It was some very very interesting stuff to say the least .

[TexasHogDogs]

The blue pit bulls were dang near all bred for color and that is just what you got 99% of the time.  This dog here that I talked about up there was grandson of Gr Ch Lionhead , Cates Cujo , Ada and the Black Widow bitch.  A super bred dog down from super performance fast lane dogs.  The blue dogs you are talking about are mostly trash bred might be a few to the exception but I dont think many.

[TexasHogDogs]

Same here with me.  This is just my opinion .  Not talking nonsense about anybody's blue dogs, horses are what ever.  Just talking about mine and the ones I have seen.  It was just a freak thing.  All pups were Black and some Reds in that liter and right in the middle of them was this pup.  I was sitting there with the gyp the night they were born. Stunned !

[l.h.cracker]

Dang Jimmy it's been awhile thought you done got lost on that Pontoon boat lol.

I love how a bulldog looks with a widows peak the dogs way way back in these bulldogs I have threw it like Baker Davis' Gr Ch. Boomerang and I have seen it in several other's off his dogs but he had a lot of Tudor's dogs in his so that makes sense.

[HuntingHeritage]

 
  From what I have seen in online pedigrees you would have to go back a hundred years to find any game family of blue colored dogs.

 The only documented example is in the ped of Tudor's Black Tige who was sired by a dog named Blue Mike that went back to a line of blue dogs.

  https://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=15093

  A very good dog historian (IMHO) in the U.K. who goes by Jackal's Old Country blood has researched in and found the last mention of the line was a pure Blue Paul shown in 1880's.

 https://jackalsoldcountryblood.com/the-history-of-blue-dogs-in-apbts-and-amstaffs/

  This world is all long gone and can only be verified to a point and I don't promote dog fighting or fighting about it online!

 

 

[TexasHogDogs]

LH Cracker .  Yeah the old back got so bad had to make some changes.  There was about eight months there I could not even straighten up.  Finally got it straighten back out .  That kinda of pain will make you change your way of thinking lol.  Been a long long time since I seen the Henry dogs in the pedigrees.  Tudor took those Henry dogs and crossed into his lines of dogs. I think the old Great Black Jack dog he had went back to the Henry dogs.  Joe Corvino was another great breeder that imported some dogs.  The old Corvino dogs were damn great great dogs from what I know and know some people that knew him.  A lot of old timers will tell you that the Corvino dogs is what put a lot of punch into the Eli dogs .  A lot of folks need to remember that the cross you put in your dogs is just as important are even more important than the main line of dogs  you are breeding .  The cross is either gonna make are break your line of dogs.  Thats a fact you just have to be smart enuff to see it and get away from it like the plague.  I know of a many many lines of good dogs that got all screwed up because of the cross blood people used and were hard headed and would not get away from it trying to make it work.  The thing is in the breeding game is either it works are it dont !  There is no inbetween !

[TexasHogDogs]

This same rule of thumb goes with linebreeding and inbreeding.  You can completely screw  up a family of dogs by trying to breed them to tight and I mean fast fast fast .  If I had to do it all over again .  I would breed best to best and let the pedigrees sort themselves out . If you see a great great dog do not hesitate are be afraid to breed to him are her the hell with the pedigree.   When I bred best to best and the hell with the pedigrees is when I had the best dogs I ever had in my life.  I did this for the first 15 years are more when I first got into the bulldogs and boy , boy is all I can say.  Then I got tied up in bloodlines and thought I was smarter than mother nature and started breeding for families of dogs .  Wrong move!  Not to say there was not any great dogs in these breedings but it was never the same .  The great great dogs come from breeding best to best with hard line culling.

[Semmes]

Just a little article to give this post ‘legs’

https://jackalsoldcountryblood.com/black-tan/

[Semmes]

Here is another naming some Black and Tan game bred pit bulls and their breeding.

https://m.facebook.com/PitbullKnightsKennels/photos/black-tan-historyretired-historicanthe-black-and-tan-coloration-is-an-uncommon-o/1988027977977046/

[Semmes]

I believe the widows peak is related to the agouti gene and recalls a recessive ancestry to Black and Tan dogs.

[Semmes]

The widows peak is expressed, only sometimes since it is recessive , when breeding two dogs with the recessive Black and Tan gene.

Whether they be of the same breed or ‘purebred’

Those dogs in turn if tightened up on ‘could’ produce Black and Tans.

From then on out Black and Tan may become the dominant color.

I believe this is proof of the terrier blood in the catahoula by way of the pitbull

[Semmes]

Next topic I would like to delve into would be, novel eye colors in Bulldogs.

Talk bout opening another can of worms. Lol

We all know the most acceptable eye color would be brown, the darker the better.

But Bulldogs come in all sorts colors. From gold to green, from the cherished black Bulldogs with ‘red’ eyes that were so successful in the ‘game’, to blue....

All this is intriguing to me.

[The Old Man]

I have read where the black and tan coloration in the old Leopard dogs was "supposed" to have came from the Beauceron, a dog of French decent.

[warrent423]

I have read where the black and tan coloration in the old Leopard dogs was "supposed" to have came from the Beauceron, a dog of French decent.

Which makes perfect sense , something these "pit" Bulldog guys just don't have much of

[Semmes]

That coming from this guy...

Let me broaden my brush. Dog fighting is not only for white trash and n#ggers, but also every other race's "trash". Again, this is only my opinion and also the opinion of those "Crackers" I was raised around I have no problem offending those who need offending

Dog fighting has and always will be for white trash and n#ggers   Has no business even being mentioned on a "working dog" forum. This is my opinion, of course.

Yeah....the dogs you claim to run wouldn’t be there if not for ‘pit’ bulldogs.

As to the old man’s point it is well noted and a very good point I had not considered. I appreciate the post greatly. That’s why I come on here. To learn from folks with a wealth of knowledge

From what I read the beauceron is a breed with quite a long history.

The French came to Louisiana in 1682. Definitely a strong point in the origin of the Black and Tan in the catahoula, maybe in the apbt as well lol...could be a chicken or egg thing.