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Semmes
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« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2022, 12:00:02 am » |
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Therefore it would prove that two dogs with the recessive trait ‘could only produce’ the trait would be false.
And that to color trait would be able to be bred away from. Since this dog was bred on quite a bit. Colby produced Black and Tans out of certain pairings.
Most bred away from the color but the recessive is there and if breed on hard it can be made predominant with selection or suppressed with selection.
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Semmes
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« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2022, 12:06:29 am » |
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Many of the terriers in their mother countries back in the old days used to put some of the terrier breeds through extreme testing conditions for gameness…some were put in a barrel with a badger or other tough varmit and if the terrier could take the punishment and kill the varmit then the terrier passed as a potential breeder…I’m thinking it had to pass a hunting test as well…
Many of the terrier breeds have smaller, dark eyes and do not protrude past the head…they are flush with the skull…they are probably bred this way to minimize debris in the eyes when going to ground or to minimize injury when engaging dangerous game in close quarters…
The APBT…the game bred usually has the same type of eye…my thinking is that they were not intentionally bred this way…the APBT that were the winners in the pit were bred…the genetic make up of the winners included more genes from the terrier influences such as the terrier eye…
Don’t take this as fact about the APBT eye…it is theoretical thinking…
As far as eyes go. A lot of this is just conjecture... It is quite feasible. When looking at the pitbull they by the standard are supposed to have almond shaped eyes Whereas American Bulldogs have round eyes My dogs have round eyes because they are by percentage mostly AB. While the half siblings of them that are full pit have the almond eyes they are supposed to have. |
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Semmes
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« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2022, 12:29:36 am » |
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Saddleback is also a manifestation of a trait
For Black and Tan
I have seen video of saddle back dingos in Australia.
Also widow peak dingos.
The Black and Tan is ancient in dog breeds.
Who knows where it originated but it probably goes back to the wolf and the formation of the dog.
This eye shape is much more modern.
But the Black and Tan is ancient.
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Reuben
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« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2022, 03:20:27 am » |
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breeding two dogs displaying the same recessive color then it is a guarantee that each dog (sire and dam) are carrying two sets of the recessive genes for color and can only produce that one color when bred together.
Thank you Semmes for pointing out my mistake…what I should of said is that the sire and dam are each for sure are carrying a recessive gene for the same color and that recessive from each parent were passed on to the pup displaying the recessive color…the guarantee is that this puppy is carrying the two recessives for that color…this pup when bred to another pup with the same color genes when bred together should produce the same color…
The Mt curs I originally started out with and decided to start breeding way back came from a breeder in San Antonio, TX…he was a successful real estate business man and he bred thoroughbred race horses and Mt curs…
He wrote an article on breeding for color in horses and he could predict the color of the offspring…but predicting the color of the pups was another story…
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Reuben
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« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2022, 03:31:56 am » |
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If all dogs originated from the wolf…from the Chihuahua, Mexican Hairless, to the Chow, the Irish Wolfhound and all other dog breeds…then there is so much more to genetics and evolution that no one could possibly explain accurately…I believe Epigenetics is the next level that will get us closer to the facts…
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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cajunl
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« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2022, 07:22:10 am » |
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The black in wolves and coyotes in North America comes from the Domestic dog.
With Genome mapping in dogs it is confirmed, dogs did not evolve from contemporary grey wolves. They evolved from the same wolf like ancestor. They are cousins compared to direct ancestors.
Similar to humans and Neanderthals if they would not have died out.
With lots of inbreeding between the species to murky the water even farther.
Just an FYI
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The Old Man
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« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2022, 08:03:35 am » |
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With all the variance in dog breeds and yet their dna is almost entirely from the wolf that points to the power of selective breeding "and" the genetic mutations in isolated gene pools. So, although breeding and genetics is a science, I don't believe it will ever be an exact science.
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make-em-squeel
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« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2022, 12:58:54 pm » |
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With all the variance in dog breeds and yet their dna is almost entirely from the wolf that points to the power of selective breeding "and" the genetic mutations in isolated gene pools. So, although breeding and genetics is a science, I don't believe it will ever be an exact science.
Ive always wondered why no one has ever used those high% wolf dogs to hog hunt with. You'd think it would come naturally to them lol. |
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Reuben
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« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2022, 07:13:23 pm » |
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With all the variance in dog breeds and yet their dna is almost entirely from the wolf that points to the power of selective breeding "and" the genetic mutations in isolated gene pools. So, although breeding and genetics is a science, I don't believe it will ever be an exact science.
This is exactly what I was saying… |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Reuben
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« Reply #69 on: January 04, 2022, 07:57:48 pm » |
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With all the variance in dog breeds and yet their dna is almost entirely from the wolf that points to the power of selective breeding "and" the genetic mutations in isolated gene pools. So, although breeding and genetics is a science, I don't believe it will ever be an exact science.
Ive always wondered why no one has ever used those high% wolf dogs to hog hunt with. You'd think it would come naturally to them lol. Make-‘‘em squeal… I have thought much about the physiological aspects of the wolf, coyote and fox which they have similar structures and the biggest differences are their sizes…we have to believe that evolution molded them to have erect ears that swivel fo pin point accuracy…how the front legs are set as well as the rib cages are shaped amongst other similarities is worth noting…the physical similarities were molded by necessity as part of the evolution process… Mother Nature does not make mistakes…she culls those that cannot meet her standards…no vaccines and no bottle feeding…the laws of nature include the laws of balance… We as humans breed for extreme traits at times for nose, length of ear and hunt just naming a few examples… Looking at one trait as an example… The ear… The wolf ear…why are they always a prick ear? I could create theories on why and I have read some examples why…but I can only say there are good reasons for it because nature doesn’t make mistakes… Bloodhound ear…I can only say that this ear can not survive in the wild and it would eventually evolve back towards the wolf, coyote and fox type ear because nature does not make mistakes…people do… |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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The Old Man
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« Reply #70 on: January 04, 2022, 10:07:04 pm » |
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Actually it seems to me that dogs devolved into flop ears, that is a genetic mutation that is controlled by the hormones secreted from the adrenal gland this in turn is part of the trigger for the fight or flight response in wild canids and we really don't want a dog with a wolf temperament. It can also contribute to white spots on the coat.
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Reuben
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« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2022, 05:03:11 am » |
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How is the malamute ear explained? Why isn’t the wolf ear evolved into the long floppy ear?
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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The Old Man
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« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2022, 09:04:13 am » |
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I don't know about the Malmute but the Wolf maintaining a prick ear is due to the necessity of higher fight or flight response necessary for a higher percentage survival rate. That is actually determined as an embryo when the adrenal gland is forming, and is formed by a group of stem cells called neural crest cells, a higher or lower concentration of these cells at different locations has an effect causing different presentations of the body parts, color or lack of, and disposition. Seems to me that may be how the "genetic mutations" occur. The different degrees of flop or prick ears in dogs is determined the same way and has to do with the amount of the "stem cell" that attaches at those points, which "per breed or specie" becomes a pretty much consistent inheritable trait.
This "theory" began with in Darwins studies and more recently was further studied by a team of researchers headed by an Adam Wilkins and was published in some high falautin Genetics Journal.
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The Old Man
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« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2022, 09:13:00 am » |
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I remember years ago reading about a study done on foxes that were tamed or domesticated from wild foxes for the fur market but as generations went by in domestication their ears, coat, tail carriage, and disposition changed since the folks wanted and chose "calmer" foxes they somewhat lost the necessity for the wild attributes controlled by these adrenal gland hormones.
This is waaay too deep and really stretching my pea brain and minimal education and I'm not smart enough to be able to apply it in any reasonable amount of time for it to be of any use to me other than maybe have a tiny bit of understanding as to how it works and came about.
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Reuben
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« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2022, 11:41:23 am » |
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I remember years ago reading about a study done on foxes that were tamed or domesticated from wild foxes for the fur market but as generations went by in domestication their ears, coat, tail carriage, and disposition changed since the folks wanted and chose "calmer" foxes they somewhat lost the necessity for the wild attributes controlled by these adrenal gland hormones.
This is waaay too deep and really stretching my pea brain and minimal education and I'm not smart enough to be able to apply it in any reasonable amount of time for it to be of any use to me other than maybe have a tiny bit of understanding as to how it works and came about.
the foxes you are talking about changed very quickly...the researchers thought it should take many generations before these drastic changes could occur...they were wrong, as many they have been in many other cases...nothing new about that... one theory on what caused this is when they were selectiong the foxes to breed, they were looking for the traits that were people friendly and also for not being shy towards people...when selecting for these traits there were other traits that were tied to those traits such as the tricolor and droopy ears... I also believe as I have posted before...folks say to pick pups for intelligence...many do not or cannot explain what that means... Just like the foxes...when we pick for winding, drifting and ranging...we are looking for those traits...but when we are looking for those traits, we must realize that those traits are tied in directly to intelligence...so selecting for those traits as natural ability we are also indirectly selecting for natural intelligence with most not knowing that this is actually happening...this is a personal theory, but I would bet money on it to be right... |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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The Old Man
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« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2022, 12:17:07 pm » |
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It was 6 generations "one generation per year" of foxes chosen strictly for tameness, and they would lick the hand of handlers and allow themselves to be petted and handled. In less than 10 yrs they exhibited flopped ears, coat color variations, and curled tails, also their "adrenal glands" became smaller each generation so it appears that the neural crest cells and hormone secretion from adrenal glands are a big part of genetic mutation. I had looked this up after the previous post since I hadn't remembered the details.
The other study mentioned above even went so far as to call the neural crest cells "shape shifter cells". It all boils down to selective breeding for us and is much more complicated and time consuming for the multiple traits needed in our hunting dogs than when breeding for one single trait such as in the foxes tameness, or milk cows milk production or broiler chickens reaching a terminal weight and so on.
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The Old Man
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« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2022, 12:23:32 pm » |
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It also stated that early on in the fox experiment it was only a small percentage of the foxes that exhibited the tameness and in the end of the 60 year experiment the majority of them did show the tameness.
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Reuben
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« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2022, 12:39:10 pm » |
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Thanks for sharing…it’s been a while since I read those articles…another study on lizards proved that evolution does not always take as long as has been previously thought…
In our case…I remember there were many wild hogs with flop ears and round hams…those hogs seemed quick to stop and fight…those would get caught pretty quick…the Russian types tend to run before fighting…as a result they live to breed another day…at least that’s how I see it…
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Goose87
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« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2022, 12:39:01 am » |
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I remember years ago reading about a study done on foxes that were tamed or domesticated from wild foxes for the fur market but as generations went by in domestication their ears, coat, tail carriage, and disposition changed since the folks wanted and chose "calmer" foxes they somewhat lost the necessity for the wild attributes controlled by these adrenal gland hormones.
This is waaay too deep and really stretching my pea brain and minimal education and I'm not smart enough to be able to apply it in any reasonable amount of time for it to be of any use to me other than maybe have a tiny bit of understanding as to how it works and came about.
the foxes you are talking about changed very quickly...the researchers thought it should take many generations before these drastic changes could occur...they were wrong, as many they have been in many other cases...nothing new about that... one theory on what caused this is when they were selectiong the foxes to breed, they were looking for the traits that were people friendly and also for not being shy towards people...when selecting for these traits there were other traits that were tied to those traits such as the tricolor and droopy ears... I also believe as I have posted before...folks say to pick pups for intelligence...many do not or cannot explain what that means... Just like the foxes...when we pick for winding, drifting and ranging...we are looking for those traits...but when we are looking for those traits, we must realize that those traits are tied in directly to intelligence...so selecting for those traits as natural ability we are also indirectly selecting for natural intelligence with most not knowing that this is actually happening...this is a personal theory, but I would bet money on it to be right... Pertaining to your last paragraph, intelligence has different meaning for different folks, I was once asked by my aunt who is a Labrador retriever fanatic, what I meant when I kept referring to intelligence, and in the same sentence she's trying to show me how smart and "intelligent" her adorable newspaper shredder was by showing me her tricks she could do that she had taught her while also trying to downplay my "hunting dogs", later that evening I already knew about a dumbfounding moment I had seen her lab do time and again, you could open her kennel while she was distracted by something else and she run right past the the wide open door about to go frantic bc she couldn't get out, you would have to leash her and pull her through the gate, every time all her life, but hey she could sit, stay, shake , and rollover, so I asked aunt may if her dear old Maggie was so smart then why in the he!! Was she barking about to go into a fit bc she was being let out of her kennel, same as everyday, but couldn't for the life of her slow down and long enough to figure out where the gate was time and again after having to lead through it every time, over time I finally got her to understand that me definition of intelligence in my dogs in a short summary was that they were problem solvers, and figured everyday task around the house out quick and remembered them as little pups, I just started keeping the ones that could figure things out that I never intended to show or expose them to, several generations later and I'm now getting dogs off one particular branch of the family tree that are scary smart, to the point that some of the things that they do just has sitting there puzzled at how did they figure that out, that's also seeming to correlate to the woods as the ones who learn the ways and routes of different game after only few runs, and are smart track running, off topic as I usually am but this time it ain't my, one of the guys above me started it, I swear.... |
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Reuben
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« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2022, 05:12:35 am » |
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Goose…I do the same with pups…I look for those that figure things out…looking for things the pups do without needing any training to do these things…also looking for natural winding nose…and those that find more hidden treats in the back yard…I then visualize my pups working in the woods even though my backyard is way way smaller…
Since we’re way off topic…
New Year’s Eve night I was concerned about my 9 week old pups, with all the noise with the fireworks that will be cracking the still of night and possibly traumatizing them…
I already know a few things about the pups…the pup that hunts the best does not like out of the routine loud noises…at the first firework pops she bolted to the shed and crawled under and stayed a good while…the second pup, it was minutes later with quite a few fireworks popping before she joined her sister…a while later their brother joined them…
The 4th pup…the noise didn’t faze him…
The only one that concerns me is the first one even though she hunts the hardest…i will see at a future date if her being over sensitive to new and loud noises will be a problem…she’s not out any time soon because she is not shy…just over cautious…
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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